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-   -   How far we are away? (http://www.mmaforum.com/general-mma-discussion/79081-how-far-we-away.html)

BobbyCooper 07-13-2010 09:26 PM

How far we are away?
 
..someday there might comes a day where we only see guys come from those barbaric MMA gyms. Guys who never became great at one traditional Martial Art and combined this art of fighting with another one and another one from time to time, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA. Outstanding Judokas or Wrestlers who after a couple of years of MMA training, switched over to the Sport of MMA.

This beautiful time we all can witness right now, will be gone and when a next generation of Bruce Buffer announces the fighters discipline.. we will only hear Mixed Martial Arts..

All the clash of styles will die and MMA will just become MMA for every fighter out there.. The great Karateka or the Japanese Judo Gold medalist can not dream about a MMA career anymore, cause he just doesn't have enough time left to keep up with those maniacs who only ever wanted to compete in a Sport hold in a Cage. For the fame for the Money..

Is this already the Golden Age of MMA?? Will we never see a top Level Judoka an All American Wrestler, or a ADCC World Submission Wrestling Champion make the transition into MMA anymore.. because he just can't keep up with the "MMA fighter"?? Will this beautiful time of the Sport will die forever, because of young boys who never even heard about a trational Martial Art anymore, like Karate, Judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? All they ever heard about was MMA who some might even wanna call already a "Martial Art"..

..do you feel the same way about this Sport of MMA? Do you feel my pain and the fear that this could and probably will happen someday to the Sport we all Love so much??

I even see myself stop watching this Sport. If all I need to know is, that the MMA guy fights the MMA guy.. two dudes who call MMA there Martial Art. Isn't that a sad thought, that this Sport will 99% head into this direction?!

Will we never see a Demian Maia again..

Chileandude 07-13-2010 10:00 PM

Actually i hope this happens rather soon, because as it's own System, MMA will possibly start to develop different approach and schools of thought, the fighters would also be better if they were groomed in the cage from an early age.

I look forward to the future.

osmium 07-13-2010 10:06 PM

I don't see that happening. The guys who train MMA instead of one discipline will have huge disadvantages against champions of single disciplines in that area. Striking is more instinctual also. So if you are a top shelf grappler you are going to be able to close the gap and surpass a lot of guys who have trained it their entire lives if you have a natural ability at striking like Fedor and Akiyama have.

The future is more guys who are really great at one discipline, good at everything else, and great athletes like GSP and Anderson. That won't be the majority of the competitors though probably just a handful more at any one time which will make the sport a lot more exciting at the top.

deadmanshand 07-13-2010 10:29 PM

To the OP:

Wow... how elitist. So if they don't come from a "legitimate" amrtial arts background they are just some thug from a "barbaric" mma gym? This train of thought is just stupid.

What you are witnessing now is the birth of a new martial art. The development of a new style of fighting born from a hundred older ones. It's just as legitimate. It's just as respectable to be a skilled mixed martial artist as it is to be a Judoka or a Karateka practitioner. They are all martial artists. Mixed Martial Arts is the new Karate. It will branch off into different schools of thought utilizing different training methods and different philosophies. It will not homogenize fighting. It will take fighting to new levels.

And even if people train at these barbaric places it doesn't mean they will all fight the same. Different people have different talents and predilections. It will force differences in style and tactics. It's mixed martial arts. Not style versus style. It is about taking the best of each style that works for you and making your own style.

To say that you would stop watching if they didn't have a background in something you respect is just ...well elitist and mma doesn't need fans like you.

Toxic 07-13-2010 11:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyCooper (Post 1224621)
..someday there might comes a day where we only see guys come from those barbaric MMA gyms. Guys who never became great at one traditional Martial Art and combined this art of fighting with another one and another one from time to time, to make the transition into the Sport of MMA. Outstanding Judokas or Wrestlers who after a couple of years of MMA training, switched over to the Sport of MMA.

This beautiful time we all can witness right now, will be gone and when a next generation of Bruce Buffer announces the fighters discipline.. we will only hear Mixed Martial Arts..

All the clash of styles will die and MMA will just become MMA for every fighter out there.. The great Karateka or the Japanese Judo Gold medalist can not dream about a MMA career anymore, cause he just doesn't have enough time left to keep up with those maniacs who only ever wanted to compete in a Sport hold in a Cage. For the fame for the Money..

Is this already the Golden Age of MMA?? Will we never see a top Level Judoka an All American Wrestler, or a ADCC World Submission Wrestling Champion make the transition into MMA anymore.. because he just can't keep up with the "MMA fighter"?? Will this beautiful time of the Sport will die forever, because of young boys who never even heard about a trational Martial Art anymore, like Karate, Judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu? All they ever heard about was MMA who some might even wanna call already a "Martial Art"..

..do you feel the same way about this Sport of MMA? Do you feel my pain and the fear that this could and probably will happen someday to the Sport we all Love so much??

I even see myself stop watching this Sport. If all I need to know is, that the MMA guy fights the MMA guy.. two dudes who call MMA there Martial Art. Isn't that a sad thought, that this Sport will 99% head into this direction?!

Will we never see a Demian Maia again..


Joe Rogan was talking about this during the Carlos Condit/Rory McDonald fight about how Rory was one of the first guys who started young training in MMA from a blank slate rather than transitioning from traditional martial arts, boxing or wrestling.

BobbyCooper 07-14-2010 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chileandude (Post 1224628)
Actually i hope this happens rather soon, because as it's own System, MMA will possibly start to develop different approach and schools of thought, the fighters would also be better if they were groomed in the cage from an early age.

I look forward to the future.

So you look forward to guys who only ever learned MMA as there fighting style? Guys who never really bothered to become great at at least one Martial Art?

For me this is a sad future..

Quote:

Originally Posted by osmium (Post 1224629)
I don't see that happening. The guys who train MMA instead of one discipline will have huge disadvantages against champions of single disciplines in that area. Striking is more instinctual also. So if you are a top shelf grappler you are going to be able to close the gap and surpass a lot of guys who have trained it their entire lives if you have a natural ability at striking like Fedor and Akiyama have.

The future is more guys who are really great at one discipline, good at everything else, and great athletes like GSP and Anderson. That won't be the majority of the competitors though probably just a handful more at any one time which will make the sport a lot more exciting at the top.

I am so glad to read a post like this Osmium! I hope you are so right with all of that. But to be honest with you.. I don't really see this being the truth.

Can you believe, that guys like Akiyama, Nakamura or Demian Maia who spend all there time to win Gold or an ADCC tournement in there particular Martial Art, can still make the transition and fight against guys who did nothing else then learning everything all togheter from the age of, let's say 10?? Guys who got pushed only become a great MMA fighter.

Is it really possible for a Judoka, who had to spend his entire childhood with this particular Martial Art, to have a chance to win Gold someday to still adapt some sort of standup fighting, to comepete against guys who did nothing else then that in there childhood??

I agree with you that guys who are as gifted as Akiyama, can make the transition maybe.. but others like Demian or Nakamura won't have the time anymore to actually keep up with those guys from the MMA gyms.

Quote:

Originally Posted by deadmanshand (Post 1224635)
To the OP:

Wow... how elitist. So if they don't come from a "legitimate" amrtial arts background they are just some thug from a "barbaric" mma gym? This train of thought is just stupid.

What you are witnessing now is the birth of a new martial art. The development of a new style of fighting born from a hundred older ones. It's just as legitimate. It's just as respectable to be a skilled mixed martial artist as it is to be a Judoka or a Karateka practitioner. They are all martial artists. Mixed Martial Arts is the new Karate. It will branch off into different schools of thought utilizing different training methods and different philosophies. It will not homogenize fighting. It will take fighting to new levels.

And even if people train at these barbaric places it doesn't mean they will all fight the same. Different people have different talents and predilections. It will force differences in style and tactics. It's mixed martial arts. Not style versus style. It is about taking the best of each style that works for you and making your own style.

To say that you would stop watching if they didn't have a background in something you respect is just ...well elitist and mma doesn't need fans like you.

I did that on purpose. To get this debate going and to get exactly people like you in here to jump on my post.

Thats the thing I am so worried about right now.. will these people really believe that MMA is there "Martial Art"?? Will they not even bother anymore, to become at least great at one Martial Art?? A style where they have an advantage on mostly everybody?

But I know what you are saying and I understand that. But don't you thing, that the excitment of the Sport will die, if everybody just studys the so called MMA "Martial Art"??
Wich obv. isn't a Martial Art?!

Don't you think, that the excitement of the Sport has a lot to do with all those different backgrounds and Martial Artists. Do you really believe, that MMA would still be that thrilling, if just both guys come out of an MMA gym and nobody really does one thing perfect??

Quote:

Originally Posted by Toxic (Post 1224650)
Joe Rogan was talking about this during the Carlos Condit/Rory McDonald fight about how Rory was one of the first guys who started young training in MMA from a blank slate rather than transitioning from traditional martial arts, boxing or wrestling.

Oh I didn't even noticed that. Good point Toxic.
Those are exactly the guys I am talking about. Don't you feel empty if the new generation of the Sport, includes guys like McDonald fighting guys like McDonald?? Guys who never really leaned to master at least one sytle of fighting?! One Martial Art to there perfection instead of just learning everything by ones and do everything mediocre..??

And everybody is saying, this guy has such a bright future ahead of him. And I have to admit, but I see this guy doing waves in his devision in a couple of years.

Is this really the future of this Sport? I don't want to believe this..

Iuanes 07-14-2010 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyCooper (Post 1224950)
Thats the thing I am so worried about right now.. will these people really believe that MMA is there "Martial Art"?? Will they not even bother anymore, to become at least great at one Martial Art?? A style where they have an advantage on mostly everybody?

But I know what you are saying and I understand that. But don't you thing, that the excitment of the Sport will die, if everybody just studys the so called MMA "Martial Art"??
Wich obv. isn't a Martial Art?!

How isn't MMA a martial art? And don't give me an answer about semantics. Yes, most fighter's of the future will learn 'MMA' as their main discipline, and the will become 'great' at the style of MMA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyCooper (Post 1224950)
Don't you think, that the excitement of the Sport has a lot to do with all those different backgrounds and Martial Artists. Do you really believe, that MMA would still be that thrilling, if just both guys come out of an MMA gym and nobody really does one thing perfect??

First of all nobody does anything perfect. Your'e acting like a Demian Maia is more noble for pursuing Jiu-jitsu to a master's level, when, if you change perspective, an MMA fighter is pushing MMA to a master's level while Maia is being willfully 'imperfect' to that end..

Look at the Condit vs Macdonald fight, is isn't like Condit is a specialist, and that fight was incredible. We are going to be watching an era of fighting where everybody can be good anywhere and no one is really afraid to take a fight in a particular direction.


Quote:

Originally Posted by BobbyCooper (Post 1224950)
Oh I didn't even noticed that. Good point Toxic.
Those are exactly the guys I am talking about. Don't you feel empty if the new generation of the Sport, includes guys like McDonald fighting guys like McDonald?? Guys who never really leaned to master at least one sytle of fighting?! One Martial Art to there perfection instead of just learning everything by ones and do everything mediocre..??

You're making alot of assumptions that haven't been proven or have been proven untrue. Just because you work on alot of areas it doesn't mean you won't be master at one or many areas. Also, over specialization leads to irrelevancy and crystallization of form(like learning a reversal of a reversal for an obscure move, or rehearsal pointless movements). Which is where you get you're idea of 'perfection', which is nonsense.

The new generation of fighter's will be fighting at a younger age because of the popularity of MMA and its viability as a profession, and may even surpass some of the specialists of the older era. Look at GSP, his base was Karate but he developed his takedown game to be one of the best in the world. He is well rounded but elite in one area and his style is slanted in that direction.

This happens because nobody is the same. People are different and will pursue different strengths and styles. You just can't assume that because learning all areas will be necessary in the future, that all the style's and fighter's will be clones. This is a leap.

I understand the worry that Andersons Silva's Muay Thai will become extinct and Demian Maia's ground game will disappear, but these discipline's are ancient and won't die. There will always be students who will want to learn these exclusively, and be able impart the knowledge they learn, or even be willing to demonstrate them in combat. The next era of MMA may not see these types of fighters, but instead be made of a new type of martial artist the like's of which we've never seen. A near master in all disciplines (and maybe an actual master in some), with the fluidity and confidence to transfer into any area with ease, efficiency and purpose.

So while you may miss a Silva vs Maia matchup where 2 two tentative specialists play games with each other, I look forward to the day when 2 elite, well rounded fighters, actively leap into each other's strengths, confident in their own, and demonstrate all aspects of the sport.

deadmanshand 07-14-2010 04:33 PM

I'd reply, Bobby, but Iuanes beat me to it. Completely agree and + rep.

Hawndo 07-14-2010 04:57 PM

Since we all know MMA isn't a martial art it is a combination of whatever you choose to train in, mainly Muay Thai, BJJ, Wrestling Boxing etc. inst it natural to assume if someone trains "MMA" but naturally excels at the BJJ aspects that this "pure fighter" or specific "martial arts champion" won't really die so long as one fighter can implement a specific game-plan out of the norm? All people are different and I really can't see everyone adopting one "MMA" style, since some may prefer to stand and bang others may still prefer GnP, Subs etc

BobbyCooper 07-14-2010 05:02 PM

First of all thanks for the great reply!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Iuanes (Post 1224976)
How isn't MMA a martial art? And don't give me an answer about semantics. Yes, most fighter's of the future will learn 'MMA' as their main discipline, and the will become 'great' at the style of MMA.

But I see it as a question of semantics.

I don't call it a Martial Art, because there is no such thing as perfection in MMA. Everything what you learn will never be as good as if you spend all your time on one style. A guy who trains MMA, does not have the time to really master this style. He can never compete with a high ADCC Wolrd Champion, or a top level Judoka unless he doesn't take the time for it.

MMA is a mix of all the fighting styles out there.. wich is suited for a Sport in a Cage. It's not a phylosophy for me! It's just something made for a Sport!

You can call it a sport.. but not a Martial Art in my eyes!

Quote:

First of all nobody does anything perfect. Your'e acting like a Demian Maia is more noble for pursuing Jiu-jitsu to a master's level, when, if you change perspective, an MMA fighter is pushing MMA to a master's level while Maia is being willfully 'imperfect' to that end..

Look at the Condit vs Macdonald fight, is isn't like Condit is a specialist, and that fight was incredible. We are going to be watching an era of fighting where everybody can be good anywhere and no one is really afraid to take a fight in a particular direction.
The thing you said about Maia is very true. He is imperfect as a Mixed Martial Artist. But Maia is a Master in something. He is a master at BJJ! Something wich takes a lot of dedication and will to establish.
The same counts for the sport MMA. It takes a lot of time to become a great MMA fighter. Thats why it is logical to start in an MMA gym, rather then a BJJ school.
MMA is introduced for a Sport!

And thats exactly the thing I am so worried about.

Fighters from the future, will only see the Sport in that Cage. Guys who really wanna compete in that Cage, start training in MMA. They will become great MMA fighters. But the Martial Art and all the beautiful aspects wich come with it.. will be gone. And nobody will or can ever revive this, because they can not keep up with those guys who started as a little child, training only MMA right from the beginning.

The Sport will be still there of course! But doesn't this bother you guys?? That the Martial Art will be gone then?

That we only have a Sport left? But the beauty of the sport will leave us?

When I think about this Iuanes.. I could immediately start crying..

The beautiful beautiful background of guys like Lyoto, Nakamura, Shinya Aoki, Demian Maia even Brock Lesnar will be gone then.. and everybody is just that AN MMA FIGHTER! Nobody has a different background anymore..

nobody will try or bother anymore to demonstrate his background as guys like Lyoto, Shinya, Silva or Akiyama. They will just be MMA fighters who learned everything at ones.. but without a background.

MMA schools are the ones who will destroy the beauty of this Sport in my eyes.

Quote:

You're making alot of assumptions that haven't been proven or have been proven untrue. Just because you work on alot of areas it doesn't mean you won't be master at one or many areas. Also, over specialization leads to irrelevancy and crystallization of form(like learning a reversal of a reversal for an obscure move, or rehearsal pointless movements). Which is where you get you're idea of 'perfection', which is nonsense.

The new generation of fighter's will be fighting at a younger age because of the popularity of MMA and its viability as a profession, and may even surpass some of the specialists of the older era. Look at GSP, his base was Karate but he developed his takedown game to be one of the best in the world. He is well rounded but elite in one area and his style is slanted in that direction.

This happens because nobody is the same. People are different and will pursue different strengths and styles. You just can't assume that because learning all areas will be necessary in the future, that all the style's and fighter's will be clones. This is a leap.

I understand the worry that Andersons Silva's Muay Thai will become extinct and Demian Maia's ground game will disappear, but these discipline's are ancient and won't die. There will always be students who will want to learn these exclusively, and be able impart the knowledge they learn, or even be willing to demonstrate them in combat. The next era of MMA may not see these types of fighters, but instead be made of a new type of martial artist the like's of which we've never seen. A near master in all disciplines (and maybe an actual master in some), with the fluidity and confidence to transfer into any area with ease, efficiency and purpose.

So while you may miss a Silva vs Maia matchup where 2 two tentative specialists play games with each other, I look forward to the day when 2 elite, well rounded fighters, actively leap into each other's strengths, confident in their own, and demonstrate all aspects of the sport.
Most of this is also true! BJ Penn for example is another great example here maybe even the best.


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