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post #21 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-29-2010, 10:14 PM
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One man's LnP is another man's technical fight. I'd rather the ref lay 'em down if they don't throw a strike after 20 seconds.


Also, regarding this topic:

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post #22 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-29-2010, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by nonamehero View Post
Basically you have to be a better wrestler than your opponents to counter him.....

This is like saying in Shaq's prime, if he was allowed to camp in the key, you can still defend him
1. be stronger than him, move him out of the key
2. foul him, he cant shoot free throws
3. shoot 3 pointers, so that it is worth one more point than his dunk
4. triple team him
5. dont let him catch the ball

hell, even with 3 secs rule, Shaq still dominated.
... i'm glad you added that last line about shaq.. i'm confused why it is someone elses job to make the fight "fair" for someone with lesser physical attributes and/or abilities.

shaq was an absolute monster with or without the 3 second rule. the onus falls on the defending team to deal with his size/skill set just as it falls on the fighters to be able to handle their opponents strengths.

what if the situation was flipped and wrestlers could never get their opponent to the ground because their tdd was too strong? would that be any less "fair" because their opponent negated their strengths in the cage effectively? would we be having discussions about how "<insert name here> take down defense is unfairly strong and negating part of the MIXED in MMA.. so we need to only stand for 20 second intervals and then the refs will start them on the ground?"

its silly. sorry people who think wrestling is boring. i know its not thrilling to watch, but its effective and i think it's going to eventually teach the fighters to become more well rounded.

oh and in reference to the notion that there is nothing to do to stop wrestlers, please go watch the anthony pettis vs shane roller fight from wec 50. it was a clinic.
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post #23 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-29-2010, 10:30 PM
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I have no problem with the guys that are serious takedown artists, that take guys down, dominate them, land punches and try for submissions but what I don't like is "Wall and Stall". Nik Lentz's performance against Andre Winner was one of the dullest I've ever seen. He was just holding Andre against the cage, grabbing onto Andre's legs, and was allowed to just hold him there. It wasn't until Andre tired in the 3rd that Lentz was actually able to do anything noteworthy. Something definitely has to be done about that gameplan, it's not remotely entertaining.

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post #24 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-29-2010, 11:33 PM
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Danm, I don't think that is a fair comparison.

This is after-all, albeit martial arts, a form of fighting.

A wrestler who couldn't get a striker down, would be having damage done to him.

A wrestler who is simply LnPing on top of another man, is not doing any damage and hence, should not be rewarded as they are doing no damage.

There is a term applied in the scoring methods in boxing for things like this, it's called 'effective aggression'. You can't be rewarded for outworking a guy, if you aren't doing any damage.

Wrestlers should simply be more active and use more GnP, nothing wrong with them using their superior wrestling, as long as they are using it effectively!
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post #25 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-29-2010, 11:52 PM
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Yeah that happened way back when with Coleman!

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post #26 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-30-2010, 03:39 AM
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The best way to stop LnP is by changing the scoring system. Do not reward fighters who just lay on their opponent. If there is no reward, fighters will look for alternatives to win.

Fighter A spends a good 1 minute striking with Fighter B. Fighter B begins to loose the striking game so shoots for a takedown. Fighter A pulls guard and holds Fighter B. Fighter B spends the rest of the round laying on Fighter A, avoiding being stood up by the ref by throwing the odd punch. The judges should now score the fight to what exactly happened. Fighter A outstiked Fighter B landing say 20/25 punches. B only lands 12/15 punches and B gets one takedown. Fighter A wins round one.

Now to be honest of not 100% sure on how judges judge fights but it seems they look at who dominated the fight alot more then who actaully inflicted damage. If Fighter A worked harder in the fight then Fighter B, Fighter A should be awarded the victory.

With a change to the scoring system it will not get rid of Lay N Pray but it will make it a very unattractive option to win a fight with.
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post #27 of 27 (permalink) Old 08-30-2010, 04:47 AM
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Yes, very good points Tweak.
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