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Old 08-30-2010, 09:09 AM   #11 (permalink)
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I think a lot of people are forgetting a big factor here, and that is time in the sport. A lot of the wrestlers who are doing very well in MMA have been wrestling since they were 3 through college. Once you leave college if you aren't going to the olympics then your wrestling is pretty useless. MMA changed that and let a lot of these highly competitve and well decorated people keep challenging themselves. In most other art forms we don't see that. The occasional guy like Lyoto Machida who had been doing karate since he was that young, and look he is a top tier MMA fighter as well.

I don't see it as wrestling taking over, I just see it as people with the longest competitive history doing very well based on their solid foundation. With this new breed coming up we will have people who started MT and BJJ when they were 4 & 5 and we are going to see some interesting fights. There will always be wrestlers, and wrestling will always be important because deciding where the fight takes place may be the greatest advantage you can have in the cage. I just think we are 10 years or so out from a great evolution in MMA.

(My wife already knows my son will be starting MT as soon as he can and he is only 3 months old. She calls him our future MMA champion.)
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:10 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Also takedowns are ridiculously overrated in scoring. I fail to see how having a close striking battle for 4:50 of a round oy to score a completely meaningless takedown that has nothing to do with anything gives you a round.

We saw this retardation at hand in the Cruz-Benavidez fight. Benavidez landed the harder strikes in the 5 minute period in the I think 3rd round and Cruz just takes him down which apparently meant he won the round. Because of a meaningless takedown into full guard.

Terrible scoring criteria is what is ruining MMA, not wrestlers.
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:27 AM   #13 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TLC View Post
Terrible scoring criteria is what is ruining MMA, not wrestlers.
Agreed. A takedown means SOMETHING, though. It means you can control where the fight goes. BUT...I think one clean punch should count about as much as a takedown followed by zero damage, zero sub attempts, etc.

I am getting sick of this "if you don't like wrestling, watch K-1" BS. I don't want to watch a wrestling match. If you DO, go watch WRESTLING. I think UNPRODUCTIVE wrestling and lay-n-pray needs to be aggressively removed from MMA. Control without damage is not FIGHTING. COntrol without damage is not WINNING. It is just avoiding a loss. Chael vs. Anderson...masterful use of wrestling to get into dominant position. Wearing someone down on the ground, grinding them, and them going for the finish...that is, and SHOULD be what a top level wrestler does. But simply holding someone down with wrestling, and controling their position is not MMA. Yes, it is (and should be) a PART of winning a fight, but I think it does a disservice to MMA to allow it to continue unabated.

There are those who argue that enforcing new rules to minimize unproductive wrestling would take away from the "as real as it gets" nature of MMA. I could not disagree more strongly. If this was "real" and a wrestler had me in side control or N-S...I would grab the jewels and pull-start the mower, if you know what I mean. But that is against the rules. You want to be able to lay-n-pray? OK, groin strikes and fish-hooking are now legal vs. wrestlers after 15 unproductive seconds.

OK, I'm gonna step off my soap-box now.....

Short version: Wrestling is GREAT. Top level wrestling is a wonderful part of MMA. If you are not at least TRYING to do damage (not neccesarily finish, but do damage, do more than control position and lay-n-pray), you are NOT FIGHTING. If you're not fighting, I don't want to watch. I love grappling. I love striking. Let's not take the (first ) M out of MMA.
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:36 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I thought i'd do a bit of research into this to see if this "wrestling domination" was ruining the entertainment factor, and found some pretty interesting results, below are the stats for the main cards of events so far this year and for 2007:


2010 16 main cards (so far):

KO/TKO finishes = 25 = 33% of total finishes

Sub finishes = 19 = 25% of total finishes

Decision finishes = 32 = 42% of total finishes


2007 19 main cards:

KO/TKO finishes = 31 = 35% of finishes

Sub finishes = 20 = 23% of finishes

Decision finishes = 37 = 42% of finishes

I know this doesn't neccaserily reflect on how interesting a fight is to watch, you can have decisions like Jung/Garcia that are amazing - but its just interesting that the amount of KOs and subs this year is pretty much identical to 3 years ago, im sure i'd find the same if i went back even further too!
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Old 08-30-2010, 09:59 AM   #15 (permalink)
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This is a good thing people. Shows that the sport is evolving. I believe this will be the trend for awhile and someone down the road will soon begin to realize the ground holes of a wrestler who also happens to be a black belt in jiu jitsu and exploit them. Also, within 10 years most guys are going to start to master wrestling which will call for far fewer takedowns. I dont mind it... did you mind it when jiu jitsu was the big thing where very few could defend? Just because its more aesthetically pleasing, doesnt make it more impressive than what a wrestler can do.


P.S. Yes i am a wrestler myself but im unbiased for the most part haha. I've been training in jiu jitsu and muay thai now for almost 3 years and i absolutely love those styles as well.

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Old 08-30-2010, 10:16 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I really hate people saying go watch this and that if you dont like lay and pray!

Look at the sport of wrestling it self you gain points for take downs and for pinning your opponent shoulders on the ground. After this "pin" guess what ? the fight is stood up why? because the skill is in getting the guy they not holding them in the pin as that is the easy bit!
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Old 08-30-2010, 10:42 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLC View Post
Also takedowns are ridiculously overrated in scoring. I fail to see how having a close striking battle for 4:50 of a round oy to score a completely meaningless takedown that has nothing to do with anything gives you a round.

We saw this retardation at hand in the Cruz-Benavidez fight. Benavidez landed the harder strikes in the 5 minute period in the I think 3rd round and Cruz just takes him down which apparently meant he won the round. Because of a meaningless takedown into full guard.

Terrible scoring criteria is what is ruining MMA, not wrestlers.
Watch the fight again.
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Old 08-30-2010, 11:40 AM   #18 (permalink)
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scoring needs to change and maybe a rule or two. no problem with guys like cain, jones, and edgar who are willing to stand and either beat you up or take you out when they get you to the ground. its guys like kos and maynard that piss me off a bit. i agree its the evolution of the sport, but at the same time i cant wait to see the day a wrestler shoots in, eats a knee and gets KTFO face down on the floor.
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Old 08-30-2010, 11:43 AM   #19 (permalink)
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scoring needs to change and maybe a rule or two. no problem with guys like cain, jones, and edgar who are willing to stand and either beat you up or take you out when they get you to the ground. its guys like kos and maynard that piss me off a bit. i agree its the evolution of the sport, but at the same time i cant wait to see the day a wrestler shoots in, eats a knee and gets KTFO face down on the floor.
Yawn!
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Old 08-30-2010, 11:46 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Thelegend View Post
scoring needs to change and maybe a rule or two. no problem with guys like cain, jones, and edgar who are willing to stand and either beat you up or take you out when they get you to the ground. its guys like kos and maynard that piss me off a bit. i agree its the evolution of the sport, but at the same time i cant wait to see the day a wrestler shoots in, eats a knee and gets KTFO face down on the floor.
Gray clearly won the striking in the 2nd round of his fight with Florian. It was dead even in rounds 1 and 3.
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