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Old 08-30-2010, 12:55 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by leifdawg View Post
Gray clearly won the striking in the 2nd round of his fight with Florian. It was dead even in rounds 1 and 3.
it was even imo because florian was too scared to throw anything because he knew that gray would take him down and just grind out a win. florians fear of the td was apparent from the beginning. i just want to see these guys finally find a more consistent way to defend the td or fight off their back.

it annoys me when people watch mma for the first time and complain about guys laying on top of each other. especially when i know they could actually do a lot of damage from top position if they wanted to.
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Old 08-30-2010, 02:43 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Toroian View Post
I really hate people saying go watch this and that if you dont like lay and pray!

Look at the sport of wrestling it self you gain points for take downs and for pinning your opponent shoulders on the ground. After this "pin" guess what ? the fight is stood up why? because the skill is in getting the guy they not holding them in the pin as that is the easy bit!
I dont know how much wrestling you have ever done or seen, but points are awarded for takedowns, and nearfall (shoulders held 45 degrees to the mat, aka nearpin) reversals, and escapes. What MMA should introduce, is a stalling system. If in a wrestling match, the wrestler with top control, does not actively work to turn the other wrestler and gain points, they are penalized. this would make MMA much more exciting. PRIDE used this system and it was far more exciting. Also takedowns into full guard shouldn't be awarded points (as in BJJ)
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Old 08-30-2010, 04:33 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by elitemmagoer View Post
I dont know how much wrestling you have ever done or seen, but points are awarded for takedowns, and nearfall (shoulders held 45 degrees to the mat, aka nearpin) reversals, and escapes. What MMA should introduce, is a stalling system. If in a wrestling match, the wrestler with top control, does not actively work to turn the other wrestler and gain points, they are penalized. this would make MMA much more exciting. PRIDE used this system and it was far more exciting. Also takedowns into full guard shouldn't be awarded points (as in BJJ)
Horrible horrible suggestions. It leaves way too much discretion to the refs. There would be no better way to fix a match than to give a ref that kind of power.

If you don't think so, look what Mustache Pete Masagotti did to Brock in Lesnar/Mir I.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:10 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Agreed. A takedown means SOMETHING, though. It means you can control where the fight goes. BUT...I think one clean punch should count about as much as a takedown followed by zero damage, zero sub attempts, etc.

I am getting sick of this "if you don't like wrestling, watch K-1" BS. I don't want to watch a wrestling match. If you DO, go watch WRESTLING. I think UNPRODUCTIVE wrestling and lay-n-pray needs to be aggressively removed from MMA. Control without damage is not FIGHTING. COntrol without damage is not WINNING. It is just avoiding a loss. Chael vs. Anderson...masterful use of wrestling to get into dominant position. Wearing someone down on the ground, grinding them, and them going for the finish...that is, and SHOULD be what a top level wrestler does. But simply holding someone down with wrestling, and controling their position is not MMA. Yes, it is (and should be) a PART of winning a fight, but I think it does a disservice to MMA to allow it to continue unabated.

There are those who argue that enforcing new rules to minimize unproductive wrestling would take away from the "as real as it gets" nature of MMA. I could not disagree more strongly. If this was "real" and a wrestler had me in side control or N-S...I would grab the jewels and pull-start the mower, if you know what I mean. But that is against the rules. You want to be able to lay-n-pray? OK, groin strikes and fish-hooking are now legal vs. wrestlers after 15 unproductive seconds.

OK, I'm gonna step off my soap-box now.....

Short version: Wrestling is GREAT. Top level wrestling is a wonderful part of MMA. If you are not at least TRYING to do damage (not neccesarily finish, but do damage, do more than control position and lay-n-pray), you are NOT FIGHTING. If you're not fighting, I don't want to watch. I love grappling. I love striking. Let's not take the (first ) M out of MMA.
It means something, but you know what's funny, even in the Unified Rules of MMA, it says RIGHT THERE that a sweep to a neutral or positive position effectively negates a takedown.

Yet in fights like Edgar-Penn 1, Edgar takes BJ down for 2 seconds and it's "OH, FRANKIE SCORED WITH THAT TAKEDOWN! BLABLBAL!" No...no he didnt...

And scoring via cage stacking is the worst thing about the sport.

Like I said, it's even a slap in the face of actual wrestling, because unlike MMA, simply pummeling for double underhooks using a foreign object to prevent a sprawl does not score you ANY points.

I also think fighters should be able to grab the fence. Stupid rule in my opinion. Sure, it was cheap when people used it to avoid takedowns, but it's even cheaper now with fence stackers like Nik Lentz using it as an exploit to win a round without doing anything(not even scoring a takedown)...

The problem isn't that I should be watching boxing or K-1...the problem is that isn't wrestling. Wrestling is actually more exciting and entertaining than the bastardization of it that is a result of the exploitation of terrible and vague scoring criteria.

Last edited by TLC : 08-30-2010 at 06:15 PM.
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:20 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TLC View Post
It means something, but you know what's funny, even in the Unified Rules of MMA, it says RIGHT THERE that a sweep to a neutral or positive position effectively negates a takedown.

Yet in fights like Edgar-Penn 1, Edgar takes BJ down for 2 seconds and it's "OH, FRANKIE SCORED WITH THAT TAKEDOWN! BLABLBAL!" No...no he didnt...

And scoring via cage stacking is the worst thing about the sport.

Like I said, it's even a slap in the face of actual wrestling, because unlike MMA, simply pummeling for double underhooks using a foreign object to prevent a sprawl does not score you ANY points.

I also think fighters should be able to grab the fence. Stupid rule in my opinion. Sure, it was cheap when people used it to avoid takedowns, but it's even cheaper now with fence stackers like Nik Lentz using it as an exploit to win a round without doing anything(not even scoring a takedown)...

The problem isn't that I should be watching boxing or K-1...the problem is that isn't wrestling. Wrestling is actually more exciting and entertaining than the bastardization of it that is a result of the exploitation of terrible and vague scoring criteria.
I argee with Nik Lentz fight i mean wtf ? he trys to score a take down fails! yet still wins the round? surely winner was controlling where the fight went by stopping him from taking it to the ground? i thought it was madness that he won the first round MADNESS!
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Old 08-30-2010, 06:26 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toroian View Post
I argee with Nik Lentz fight i mean wtf ? he trys to score a take down fails! yet still wins the round? surely winner was controlling where the fight went by stopping him from taking it to the ground? i thought it was madness that he won the first round MADNESS!
Well Winner actually landed several nice shots in the 1st, including Thai knees to the body. That'll always sway me more than cage stacking...cage stacking, I dont even understand how that scores.

I actually scored the fight for Winner 29-28 but I knew that he wasn't going to win because of how MMA is scored.

Quote:
Originally Posted by elitemmagoer View Post
I dont know how much wrestling you have ever done or seen, but points are awarded for takedowns, and nearfall (shoulders held 45 degrees to the mat, aka nearpin) reversals, and escapes. What MMA should introduce, is a stalling system. If in a wrestling match, the wrestler with top control, does not actively work to turn the other wrestler and gain points, they are penalized. this would make MMA much more exciting. PRIDE used this system and it was far more exciting. Also takedowns into full guard shouldn't be awarded points (as in BJJ)
Exactly. The tards that constantly spout off that "Go watch boxing or K-1" I doubt even watch wrestling. Wrestling is much more dramatic and exciting than a typical Jon Fitch fight. The scoring criteria actually forces the wrestlers to...you know.....actually wrestle.
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Old 08-30-2010, 07:48 PM   #27 (permalink)
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I think this is largely an illusion of an upcoming title fight between Edgar and Maynard.

The UFC welterweight division is heavily wrestler-centric, but that's the only serious division that's dominated by wrestlers, and a quick meta-analysis of the top ten heavyweights in the top five divisions (that's fifty fighters) will yield you this:

17 "wrestlers" (I'm being hugely generous with this number, by the way; if you count only NCAA DI wrestlers, you end up with 11 and lose Shane Carwin and Jon Jones)
20 BJJ blackbelts

The numbers for strikers are trickier, because its hard to qualify what, exactly, qualifies someone as a "striker." Is Nogueira a striker? He has a high caliber boxing background. Is Junior Dos Santos a striker? He doesn't have many accomplishments in striking competitions, but is an incredibly accomplished striker in terms of MMA.

So that whole thing is tricky.

But I think it has a lot to do with a shift in the particular title holders.

Division by division, look at it this way.

The UFC heavyweight division has always fluctuated between being dominated by strikers and being dominated by wrestlers. Up until 2002, it was controlled by wrestlers, with the exception of Pete Williams and Bas Rutten holding the title once apiece. Then we had the period of Sylvia and Arlovski, with the Frank Mir interlude and the Nogueira and Mir transition (very briefly, in the large scheme) to Brock Lesnar, which takes us back into a wrestling period.

The lightheavyweight division has actually gotten less wrestler-centric as the years have gone on. From 2000-2007, the title was held by a wrestler (if you want to count Ortiz, who doesn't have an DI background) with the exception of Belfort's one win over Couture before losing the belt again. Rampage Jackson is the first non-wrestler to hold the belt, and since he took it, we've had one wrestler win a title fight, to four different strikers (of five title defenses).

The middleweight belt has been held by a striker since Rich Franklin won the belt in 2005. Of course, this is largely due to the fact that Anderson Silva has been the champion for a long damn time. Just for a quick meta-analysis of top contenders against Rich and Anderson: two wrestlers, three BJJ blackbelts and six strikers (four if you exclude Rich and Anderson themselves, who each fought the other for the belt as a challenger once).

The welterweight division really has two eras, with some upsets built in. You have the pre-Matt Hughes era, which is all about Pat Miletich (who I'd count as a striker, but it also a BJJ blackbelt) and then you have a division dominated by wrestlers from Hughes through St. Pierre; though it's hard to say that St. Pierre was a wrestler when he initially won the belt. So that division has pretty much always been run by a wrestler, at least since 2001. Of the challengers faced by Hughes: two wrestlers (only counting Trigg once), three strikers, one BJJ blackbelt. Of the challengers faced by St. Pierre: two BJJ blackbelts, two strikers and a wrestler. I'm setting aside the three Hughes vs. St. Pierre belts, but you can do the math.

The lightweight division has gone through all three. You have Pulver in the beginning, then the removal of the belt. You have Sherk, then him being stripped of the belt. And then Penn. Even with Edgar vs. Maynard coming up, its a wide open division. Two of the next serious contenders are BJJ blackbelts, Sotiropoulos and Dunham. So it's an open game.

By the way, my favorite statistic about the lightweight division: Until Frankie Edgar upset B.J. Penn in Abu Dhabi, an incumbent UFC lightweight champion had never lost his belt.
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:20 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toroian View Post
If we look at all the division in the UFC a trend is appearing!

Heavy weight

Champ: Brock - wrestler
No 1 contender: Cain - wrestler

Light heavy weight

Champ: Shogun - striker
No 1 contender: Evans - wrestler(Gone back to wrestling)
Up and comers: jones - Wrestler(Gone to wrestling thanks to greg)

Middle weight

Champ: Anderson - Striker
No 1 contender: Chael - Wrestler

W(restler)elter weight

Champ: GSP - Wrestler
No 1 contender: Kos - Wrestler (Gone back to pure wrestling)
Other top contenders:
Fitch - Wrestler
Shields - Wrestler

Light weight

Champ: Frankie - wrestler
No 1 contender: Maynard - wrestler

It really is shocking to see how many fighters are using wrestling to get to the top of the divisions. Some use it well with a mix of striking and take downs such as frankie but other just use it for lay and pray or for control such as KOS and Fitch.

Why are so many using it now to dominate? and not years before ? since wrestling has always been around. One of the reasons i think is that in the early days fighters felt obligated to stand up for entertainment in fear of been boring and then been cut? but with the sport growing and top star GSP using it to dominate fighters now feel it ok to wrestle more? Or is it just the fact that the wrestlers know been BJJ and how to stop it by leaving little space(hugging) for it to be used that allows them to be more successful?

Why do you guys think it is ?

Do you think its potentially bad for the sport for wrestlers to dominate so much ?
Not so sure that "wrestlers dominate MMA"...a few thoughts:

HW: Lesnar - clearly a pure wrestler, but I think part of his domination is that he outweighs msot of his opponents by 30-40lbs of muscle.

LHW: Rua - not a 'wrestler'.

MW: Silva - not a 'wrestler'.

WW: GSP - not a pure wrestler, he's truly a more of a mixed martial artist who trains in wrestling (like they all do), but he's not a 'wrestler' who took up MMA.

LW: Edgar - wrestler

Wrestling is a key component of MMA, but I'm not ready to say MMA is 'dominated by wrestlers.'
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:34 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Toroian View Post
If we look at all the division in the UFC a trend is appearing!

Heavy weight

Champ: Brock - wrestler
No 1 contender: Cain - wrestler

Light heavy weight

Champ: Shogun - striker
No 1 contender: Evans - wrestler(Gone back to wrestling)
Up and comers: jones - Wrestler(Gone to wrestling thanks to greg)

Middle weight

Champ: Anderson - Striker
No 1 contender: Chael - Wrestler

W(restler)elter weight

Champ: GSP - Wrestler
No 1 contender: Kos - Wrestler (Gone back to pure wrestling)
Other top contenders:
Fitch - Wrestler
Shields - Wrestler

Light weight

Champ: Frankie - wrestler
No 1 contender: Maynard - wrestler

It really is shocking to see how many fighters are using wrestling to get to the top of the divisions. Some use it well with a mix of striking and take downs such as frankie but other just use it for lay and pray or for control such as KOS and Fitch.

Why are so many using it now to dominate? and not years before ? since wrestling has always been around. One of the reasons i think is that in the early days fighters felt obligated to stand up for entertainment in fear of been boring and then been cut? but with the sport growing and top star GSP using it to dominate fighters now feel it ok to wrestle more? Or is it just the fact that the wrestlers know been BJJ and how to stop it by leaving little space(hugging) for it to be used that allows them to be more successful?

Why do you guys think it is ?

Do you think its potentially bad for the sport for wrestlers to dominate so much ?
Part II of my rebuttal of why "wrestlers" aren't dominating MMA is this: the sport has evolved and styles are merging.
If a wrestler trains how to avoid and escape a triangle choke, guillotine, arm bar etc: isn't he then training in BJJ??
If a "wrestler" trains in avoiding getting KOed with a right cross by keeping his hands high, isn't he traiing in boxing?
If a wrestler trains in not catching a knee while shooting, isn't he training Muay Thai?

My point is that, unlike the 90s when you had one dimensional fighters--today the martial arts are truly merging into a modern day MIXED martial arts, and it's fun to watch.
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Old 08-30-2010, 08:36 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TLC View Post
It means something, but you know what's funny, even in the Unified Rules of MMA, it says RIGHT THERE that a sweep to a neutral or positive position effectively negates a takedown.

Yet in fights like Edgar-Penn 1, Edgar takes BJ down for 2 seconds and it's "OH, FRANKIE SCORED WITH THAT TAKEDOWN! BLABLBAL!" No...no he didnt...

And scoring via cage stacking is the worst thing about the sport.

Like I said, it's even a slap in the face of actual wrestling, because unlike MMA, simply pummeling for double underhooks using a foreign object to prevent a sprawl does not score you ANY points.

I also think fighters should be able to grab the fence. Stupid rule in my opinion. Sure, it was cheap when people used it to avoid takedowns, but it's even cheaper now with fence stackers like Nik Lentz using it as an exploit to win a round without doing anything(not even scoring a takedown)...

The problem isn't that I should be watching boxing or K-1...the problem is that isn't wrestling. Wrestling is actually more exciting and entertaining than the bastardization of it that is a result of the exploitation of terrible and vague scoring criteria.
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