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Old 11-29-2010, 11:44 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
For a second, I thought this thread was going to demand some sort of nuance. It's different than most boxing/MMA threads.

That said, the answer is fairly straightforward.




The logistics of navigating this kind of an organization would be absolutely impossible. Set aside the theories about how Floyd Mayweather (and others) don't actually want to fight the top competition and just think about the money.

The startup costs for signing the major boxers in any one weightclass would be in the low nine figures, at least. Floyd, Pacquiao, even relatively small names like Josh Clottey, get paid eight figure salaries for individuals fights. Putting together a substantial roster with guys like this would be basically impossible, and probably not sustainable unless you had an absolutely enormous bank of donors backing the company.

Thai boxers are cheaper, but they present another problem altogether. That problem is the prolific nature of Thai fighters. Many of them want to fight on a regular basis, which makes putting on major cards with them difficult, it makes building dynasties difficult (because it significantly shortens their career in terms of years and makes them more inclined to losses) and it makes signing them to exclusive contracts very difficult.

Boxers have their own problems with contract exclusivity, but under your hypothetical, I think that problem (finding quality opponents and going to other promoters when they can) would largely be resolved.

MMA fighters have all of these problems.

If there was a person with a billion dollars starting budget and substantial relationships with the most respected coaches in boxing, I'd say it could be done. But I'm pretty sure that person doesn't exist (and there are a few reasons why I think that person can't exist, especially with regard to the second condition) so I think that this isn't really a possibility.
currently the top 2 boxing promotions are Top Rank ran by Bob Arum and Golden Boy Promotions ran by Oscar De La Hoya.almost all weight divisions split into these promotions. the problem is that these 2 promotions dont want to do business with one another. for example Pacquiao and Mayweather, Juan Manuel Marquez and Humberto Soto, Juan Manuel Lopez and Chris John, Donaire and Abner Mares are the most problematic case. if those 2 promotions were to unite, we would have a ufc type promotion, and other fighters in smaller promotions like don king or gary shaw would equate to strikeforce and bellator. this is what i think hurts boxing. if we would have one major promotion instead of 2, we would not have so many belts because that promotion would make sure they would unify it.

regarding the times boxers fight per year, its not correct. floyd mayweather claimed in an interview it takes half a year to build a fight. Andre Berto wanted to fight next year 3 times (Moseley, Cotto and Pacquiao). this could all be under one promotion, IF the 2 promotions would unite. if that would happen i will guarantee boxing WILL NOT die. look at how much money they generate. and regarding pay, mayweather and the like dont get paid by the promotion, they get paid from PPV buys, gate etc.
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Old 11-29-2010, 12:15 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Old 11-29-2010, 04:28 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by UFC86 View Post
currently the top 2 boxing promotions are Top Rank ran by Bob Arum and Golden Boy Promotions ran by Oscar De La Hoya.almost all weight divisions split into these promotions. the problem is that these 2 promotions dont want to do business with one another. for example Pacquiao and Mayweather, Juan Manuel Marquez and Humberto Soto, Juan Manuel Lopez and Chris John, Donaire and Abner Mares are the most problematic case. if those 2 promotions were to unite, we would have a ufc type promotion, and other fighters in smaller promotions like don king or gary shaw would equate to strikeforce and bellator. this is what i think hurts boxing. if we would have one major promotion instead of 2, we would not have so many belts because that promotion would make sure they would unify it.
I've bolded the only relevant part of this post.

Sure, if you could get De La Hoya and Bob Arum into the same room, you might make some progress. You'd have an easier time getting Dana White to take Scott Coker out for dinner and a movie.

Also, your comment isn't a response to anything I said.


Quote:
regarding the times boxers fight per year, its not correct. floyd mayweather claimed in an interview it takes half a year to build a fight. Andre Berto wanted to fight next year 3 times (Moseley, Cotto and Pacquiao). this could all be under one promotion,
Did you even read my post?

The comment about "number of fights per year" was strictly with regard to Thai fighters. I specifically denoted a different sort of issue with contract exclusivity (that is to say: they don't have problems with the number of fights per year) when talking about boxers.


Quote:
IF the 2 promotions would unite. if that would happen i will guarantee boxing WILL NOT die. look at how much money they generate. and regarding pay, mayweather and the like dont get paid by the promotion, they get paid from PPV buys, gate etc.
Yes, if your unlikely hypothetical happens, it will be good for boxing. I don't think boxing is going to die as it is though, so I don't think the survival of boxing really depends on some sort of union between Arum and De La Hoya.

You think that a promotion like this would operate in a way that would apportion the buy gate to essentially all of the fighters (as opposed to just headliners, as is current practice) and still make money? Seriously? They'd go out of business after two events.

Playing flat salaries (which many promotions do; Mayweather is more the exception than the rule) is unlikely because of the sheer amount of money it would require to get these guys to fight.

Playing proportions of the gate is impossible because it would deprive the company of the basic money it would need for operating costs. If you give Mayweather 15% and Pacquiao 15% and Marquez 15% and Berto 15% and so on, you're not going to have any money left for the promoter. These percentage purses are fine when they are only offered to the main event guys, but with names this big, offering them small portions of the gate and pay-per-view revenue is not going to get them into a contract. Getting these guys to settle for 3-5% is not a task that seems in the realm of possibilities.
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Old 12-04-2010, 07:31 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
I've bolded the only relevant part of this post.

Sure, if you could get De La Hoya and Bob Arum into the same room, you might make some progress. You'd have an easier time getting Dana White to take Scott Coker out for dinner and a movie.


The comment about "number of fights per year" was strictly with regard to Thai fighters. I specifically denoted a different sort of issue with contract exclusivity (that is to say: they don't have problems with the number of fights per year) when talking about boxers

Yes, if your unlikely hypothetical happens, it will be good for boxing. I don't think boxing is going to die as it is though, so I don't think the survival of boxing really depends on some sort of union between Arum and De La Hoya.

You think that a promotion like this would operate in a way that would apportion the buy gate to essentially all of the fighters (as opposed to just headliners, as is current practice) and still make money? Seriously? They'd go out of business after two events.

Playing flat salaries (which many promotions do; Mayweather is more the exception than the rule) is unlikely because of the sheer amount of money it would require to get these guys to fight.

Playing proportions of the gate is impossible because it would deprive the company of the basic money it would need for operating costs. If you give Mayweather 15% and Pacquiao 15% and Marquez 15% and Berto 15% and so on, you're not going to have any money left for the promoter. These percentage purses are fine when they are only offered to the main event guys, but with names this big, offering them small portions of the gate and pay-per-view revenue is not going to get them into a contract. Getting these guys to settle for 3-5% is not a task that seems in the realm of possibilities.
ok i missed the thai fighters part. i think having a Top Rank/Golden Boy united promotion will still allow certain boxers to compete as often as they like. look at josh koscheck in ufc. theres always injuries etc.

the undercard boxers can get paid something around ufc salary, and i believe they currently get paid less then the ufc.

you just named 4 fighters getting a proportion of the ppv floyd, manny, JMM (i assume) and Berto (though he is only a prospect at this point). you dont need to have them all in one card. how many p4p greats are there? theres maybe 2-3 great boxers in each weight class. you could have a few of them getting a ppv cut, while filling the rest of the card with top 10 fighters that would be payed significantly less. thats why i compared it to ufc, i think that model works.
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Old 12-04-2010, 08:08 PM   #25 (permalink)
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also heres how i see the top 10 rankings

HW
1. Wladimir Klitschko 56-3 89%KO
2. Vitali Klitschko 43-2 93%KO
3. David Haye 24-1 92%KO
4. Ruslan Chagaev, 26-1 65%KO
5. Nikolay Valuev 50-2 68%KO
6. Tomasz Adamek 42-1 64%KO
7. Eddie Chambers 35-2 51%KO
8. Samuel Peter 34-4 78%KO
9. Dennis Boytsov 28-0 81%KO
10.Alexander Povetkin 22-0 75%KO

Cruiserweight
1. Yoan Pablo Hernandez 24-1
2. Steve Cunningham 23-3
3. Krzysztof Wlodarczyk 44-2
4. Marco Huck 30-1
5..Alexander Frenkel 23-0 78%KO

Light-Heavyweight
1. Bernard Hopkins
2. Jean Pascal 26-2
3. Adrian Diaconu 27-2
4. Chad Dawson 29-1
5. Jurgen Brahmer 36-2
6. Tavoris Cloud 22-0
Nathan Cleverly 23-0
Zsolt Erdei 33-0

Super-Middleweight
1. Andre Ward 23-0
2. Lucian Bute 29-0
3. Mikkell Kessler 43-2
4. Carl Froch 27-1
5. Arthur Abraham 31-2
6. Jermaine Taylor 28-4
7. Kelly Pavlik, 36-2
8. Glen Johnson

Middleweight
1. Sergio Martinez 45-2
2. Julio Cesar Chavez Jr. 43-0
3. Paul Williams
4. Felix Sturm 35-2
5. Sebastian Sylvester 33-3
6. Sebastian Zbik 30-1
7. Khoren Gevor 31-5
8. Hassan Njikam 26-0
Contenders: Gennady Golovkin 21-0
Dmitry Pirog 19-0

Light-Middleweight
1 Manny Pacquiao 53-3
2. Miguel Angel Cotto 35-2
3. Saul Alvarez 36-0
4. Jose Miguel Cotto 31-2
5. Antonio Margarito 38-7
6. Kermit Cintron 32-3
7. Sergiy Dzinziruk 37-1
8. Pawel Wolak 28-1
9. Yuri Foreman 28-2
contenders: Vanes Martirosyan 30-0
Austin Trout 24-0

Welterweight
1. Floyd Mayweather Jr,42-0
2. Shane Moseley 46-7
3. Victor Ortiz 29-3
4. Andre Berto 27-1
5. Mike Alvarado 31-0
contenders: Vyacheslav Senchenko 31-0
Selcuk Aydin 22-0

Light-Welterweight
1. Timothy Bradley 28-0
2. Devon Alexander 21-1
3. Amir Khan 24-1
4. Marcos Maidana 29-2
5. Zab Judah 40-6
6. Lucas Matthyse 25-1 92%KO
7. Paulie Malignaggi 27-4
8. Paul McCloskey 22-1
contenders: Ajose Olusegun 29-0

Lightweight
1. Juan Manuel Marquez 51-5
2. Humberto Soto 55-7
3. Brandon Rios 28-0
4. Michael Katsidis 28-4
5. Miguel Acosta
6. Urbano Antillon 28-3
7. Kevin Mitchell 32-1
8. John Murray 31-1

Super-Featherweight
1. Jorge Solis 40-2
2. Adrien Broner 21-0
3. John Litzau 28-3
4. Cellestino Caballero 34-3 68%KO
5. Elroy Perez 22-1
6. Mzonke Fana 30-4
7. Takashi Uchiyama 17-0 81%KO
8. Juan Carlos Salgado 22-1

Featherweight
1. Chris John 45-0-2
2. Yuriorkis Gamboa 21-0 79%KO
3. Orlando Salido 34-11 (8 losses under 21yo)
4. Juan Manuel Lopez 30-1 90%KO
5.Jhonny Gonzalez 46-7
6.Daniel Ponce De Leon 42-2
7. Steve Luevano 37-2

Super-Bantamweight
1. Toshiaki Nishioka 37-4
2. Ryo Li Lee 17-1
3. Akifumi Shimoda 22-2
4. Masaaki Serie 17-4

Bantamweight
1.Nonito Donaire 26-1
2. Fernando Montiel 44-3
3 Abner Mares 21-0
4.Joseph Agbeko 28-2
5 Yohnny Perez 20-1
6. Vic Darchinyan 35-3
7. Anselmo Moreno 30-1

Super-Flyweight
1. Duangpetch Kokietgym 52-1
2. Juan Rosas 32-5
3. Hugo Cazares 33-6

Flyweight
1. Pongsaklek Wonjongham 77-3
2. Koki Kameda 23-1
3. Daiki Kameda 17-2
4. Luis Concepcion 22-1
5. Moruti Mthalane 27-2
6. Edgar Sosa 40-6

Light-Flyweight
1. Giovanni Segura 25-1
2. Ivan Calderon 34-1
3. Luis Lazarte 47-9
4. Milan Melindo 24-0
4. Carlos Tamara 21-5
5. Brian Viloria 27-3
6. Ulises Solis 32-2

Minimumweight
1. Kazuto Ioka 7-0
2. Oleydong Sithsamerchai 34-1
3. Eagle Kyowa 20-2
4. Donnie Nietes 27-1
5. Nkosinathi Joyi 21-0
6. Raul Garcia 29-1
contenders: Roman Gonzalez 28-0

edit: p4p
Floyd Mayweather, Pacquiao, Donaire, Humberto Soto

Last edited by UFC86 : 11-13-2011 at 11:14 AM.
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Old 12-04-2010, 09:11 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Yeah, but how would these guys fare in MMA?
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Old 12-05-2010, 12:21 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Yeah, but how would these guys fare in MMA?
well... probably like Randy Couture vs James Toney if they fought a great grappler.

the klitschko brothers did compete in kickboxing.
David Haye is a big fan of mma
manny pacquiao wants to debut in the future in mma
vic also expressed interest in mma
donaire is also a fan and would like to compete in the future

thats as far as i know.
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:06 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I think if an athletic boxer actually were to take training in MMA seriously and prepare for some grappling and takedown defense they would fare alot better than Toney did. Pac definately can be one of those guys should he transition, which is pretty realistic unless he goes agaisnt Floyd. As for the Klitschko brothers, we know that kickboxing is actually a good base for MMA as Cro Cop has demonstrated!
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Old 12-05-2010, 03:12 PM   #29 (permalink)
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I think if an athletic boxer actually were to take training in MMA seriously and prepare for some grappling and takedown defense they would fare alot better than Toney did. Pac definately can be one of those guys should he transition, which is pretty realistic unless he goes agaisnt Floyd. As for the Klitschko brothers, we know that kickboxing is actually a good base for MMA as Cro Cop has demonstrated!
most boxers are athletic, otherwise they wouldnt be in the top 10. Toney trained 6 months in grappling. i think that a boxer should stay in boxing, for the sake of not diminishing his boxing skills. hes good in boxing, let him keep being successful in boxing and keep getting payed well (referring to pacquiao). they would need to be like a new breed if they want to be successful in mma. they have to practise years and years in grappling to be good, in combination with boxing (like Rampage for example). Toney showed 6 months is just not enough.
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Old 12-05-2010, 05:18 PM   #30 (permalink)
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More like he didn't bother to use it at all. Six months of grappling and he should've been better than what he showed for it. There is this girl on my team who has had less then two months and she's already better than Toney was!
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