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Old 09-13-2010, 12:26 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by E Lit Er Ate View Post
im not the biggest brock fan in the world but wow what a BS rant.

what HWs has Overeem beaten that make you rank him so much higher than Brock??

Buentello and Rogers??

get real.

Brock has done more in 6 fights than Overeem has HIS ENTIRE CAREER in MMA.

oh, i remember, LOSING to some decent LHWs makes you a GREAT HW!!! Like Brandon Vera!!
When you start you MMA career at 19 years old you are going to have some losses along the way, you cant even begin to judge overeem on his past losses as a LHW, you only need to look at the fighter he has become over the course of 45 professional MMA fights, thats as many as Brock (6), Mir (18), JDS (13) and Cain (8) combined btw, lets see there records after 45 fights, you only need to look at the guy to see he has become the real deal.

Werdum is still a really good fighter when he gets his way, much like Frank Mir, only I would say better than Frank Mir.

If you take the SF top 5 and faced them off against the UFC top 5 without making some kind of off balance set up like Cain vs Rogers or JDS vs Werdum, then I would bet SF woudl easily come out on top.

You would have

Brock vs Overeem - Champ vs Champ
Werdum vs Mir - Best BJJ in each division
Carwin vs Rogers - The KO artists
Barnett vs Cain - Wrestlers
Fedor vs JDS - Just class I guess, just the guy left to face Fedor

In that kind of line up, I dare say its more likely to be 5-0 SF than it is for the UFC to win overall.

You ever noticed how many BJJ Brown Belts there are swarming around the UFC from one event to the next, only colour I see recently at SF is Black.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:33 PM   #22 (permalink)
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I have Barnett ranked as the #10 HW in the world right now personally, not based on what he's done necessarily but just based on how I think he would do if placed against legit competetion. I would love to see Barnett vs. Antonio Silva.
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Old 09-13-2010, 12:58 PM   #23 (permalink)
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yea he was decent in the pride days, like i said, i dont think he is that great, with our without roids.

all those big wins he has, those guys are all irrelevent now with the exception of Nog, who looks on his way to being irrelevent soon.

Those wins should in no way make Josh Barnett a top contender today, as some rankings have him.

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Originally Posted by KillerShark1985 View Post
When you start you MMA career at 19 years old you are going to have some losses along the way, you cant even begin to judge overeem on his past losses as a LHW, you only need to look at the fighter he has become over the course of 45 professional MMA fights, thats as many as Brock (6), Mir (18), JDS (13) and Cain (8) combined btw, lets see there records after 45 fights, you only need to look at the guy to see he has become the real deal.

Werdum is still a really good fighter when he gets his way, much like Frank Mir, only I would say better than Frank Mir.

If you take the SF top 5 and faced them off against the UFC top 5 without making some kind of off balance set up like Cain vs Rogers or JDS vs Werdum, then I would bet SF woudl easily come out on top.

You would have

Brock vs Overeem - Champ vs Champ
Werdum vs Mir - Best BJJ in each division
Carwin vs Rogers - The KO artists
Barnett vs Cain - Wrestlers
Fedor vs JDS - Just class I guess, just the guy left to face Fedor

In that kind of line up, I dare say its more likely to be 5-0 SF than it is for the UFC to win overall.

You ever noticed how many BJJ Brown Belts there are swarming around the UFC from one event to the next, only colour I see recently at SF is Black.
yea cuz BJJ off your back vs these wrestlers is just gonna get you beat.

i dont see how you equate having a BJJ blackbelt as being a better fighter??

Overeem isnt some monster off his back, and thats where Brock would likely be putting him, pretty fast.

Havent ppl learned from the Frank Mir incident..... SIZE DOESNT = WRESTLING.

Just cuz Overeem is a monster now, doesnt mean he suddenly became a world class wrestler and he was never world class off his back.

i agree with Werdum vs Mir. Mir is a bumski imo.

Carwin would prob beat Rogers but who cares.

Cain would SMIZZZASH Barnett. Better wrestler with better standup, WAY better cardio and WAY faster. Barnett in for a world of hurt.

Fedor vs JDS. Great match. I pick Fedor.

I rather JDS vs Barnett and take JDS and Cain vs Fedor and take Cain tbh.

Last edited by HitOrGetHit : 09-13-2010 at 02:16 PM. Reason: Double Post
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:42 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by E Lit Er Ate View Post
yea cuz BJJ off your back vs these wrestlers is just gonna get you beat.

i dont see how you equate having a BJJ blackbelt as being a better fighter??

Overeem isnt some monster off his back, and thats where Brock would likely be putting him, pretty fast.

Havent ppl learned from the Frank Mir incident..... SIZE DOESNT = WRESTLING.

Just cuz Overeem is a monster now, doesnt mean he suddenly became a world class wrestler and he was never world class off his back.

i agree with Werdum vs Mir. Mir is a bumski imo.

Carwin would prob beat Rogers but who cares.

Cain would SMIZZZASH Barnett. Better wrestler with better standup, WAY better cardio and WAY faster. Barnett in for a world of hurt.

Fedor vs JDS. Great match. I pick Fedor.

I rather JDS vs Barnett and take JDS and Cain vs Fedor and take Cain tbh.
You argue Brocks wrestling is his only weapon, how would you rate Brock standing with Overeem, Overeems ground game is not as weak as Brocks stand up.

Your using Mir as a template of how Overeem would go against Brock, Mir is a ground fighter, Overeem would keep it standing, this is not the WW division where the guys going for the TD's can close the distance and shoot under strikes faster than you can strike. Brock will get KO'ed before he can take Overeem down, whats he going to do when overeem starts using those knees in the clinch, plus a 255lb guy is not as easy to take down as a 170lb guy, the state of the WW division and wrestling does not cross over into the other divisions, especially HW.

Brock is not exactly a TD master, nor does it suit the division, he had problems taking Couture down and Overeem is bigger, stringer and would be harder to take down, if he spends time in the clinch like he did with Couture before the take downs, he will get hurt with those knees, against Carwin he was outclassed on his feet and could not take him down cleanly, he would get destroyed by Overeem on the feet, there would be no Cardio comeback ether, I would have it, Overeem 1st round KO every time.

I think your assumption on wrestling been the dominant force is confused, Brock is not GSP, he does not shoot nearly as quick at his weight and this is not WW where you can condition your body to shoot quick enough and be strong enough for the TD to be able to avoid a striking game all together against guys who are a lot smaller and lighter to TD.

Quote:
Originally Posted by E Lit Er Ate View Post
yea he was decent in the pride days, like i said, i dont think he is that great, with our without roids.

all those big wins he has, those guys are all irrelevent now with the exception of Nog, who looks on his way to being irrelevent soon.

Those wins should in no way make Josh Barnett a top contender today, as some rankings have him.
Its pointless arguing wins with some people like this, have you heard yourself serioly, your argument is "your wisn dont count unless you beat a guy who is signed up to the UFC" yea whatever, thats all the rely on to make there fights sound better, the notion that "you have not beat any of our guys so there for you wins dont count"

That is nothing but marketing propaganda, of course those win count and mean something, and the only reason the UFC guys have not been beat by the guys outside the UFC is because the UFC protects its fighters from fighting guys on the circuit, yea thats right its the UFC that says "our guys wont fight outsiders", and you know why that is right, because how bad would it look if they where to do a cross promotion and there guys where to loose. SF on the other hand have down cross promotion with some of there top fighters and they have been winning, proving they are the best of the rest, UFC only claims to be, its about time they had there fighters step up and prove it.
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Old 09-13-2010, 01:57 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Great add on by SF. Imo if they can get Pedro Rizzo, Barnett vs Rizzo 3 isnt a bad fight.
The UFC and SF HW division is somewhat matched.
UFC SF
Lesnar Overeem
Cain Fedor
JDS Silva
Carwin Werdum
Mir Barnett
TBH SF HW's are a bit deeper than the UFC. Accomplishments and Ability wise
UFC Heavyweights have 4 world titles in total (Lesnar 1, Carwin 1, Mir 2)
SF Heavyweights have 6 world titles (Overeem 1, Fedor 3, Silva 1, Barnett 1)
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:11 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Not since 2006, first time he was caught back in 2002, well I bet Brock was doing as much if not more back then.
Actually last time he failed was in 2009 when he was finally supposed to fight Fedor.

Not that I'm a Brock fan, but can you back up your point that he was abusing steroids? Oh and "look at him, he's a freak" isn't substantial proof.

Back on topic, this is great for strikeforce. I'd imagine they'd try to set up Fedor-Barnett, but it also leaves room for plenty of other interesting matchups. I'd personally love to see Overeem and Barnett go at it. Maybe even Arlovski vs good ol baby face.
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Old 09-13-2010, 02:20 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Everybody should stay on topic! Every time somebody mentions steroids, we get the same Brock talk all over again.

Barnett may not be as good as he used to be, but it's an amazing catch for Strikeforce never the less.
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:22 PM   #28 (permalink)
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You argue Brocks wrestling is his only weapon, how would you rate Brock standing with Overeem, Overeems ground game is not as weak as Brocks stand up.

Your using Mir as a template of how Overeem would go against Brock, Mir is a ground fighter, Overeem would keep it standing, this is not the WW division where the guys going for the TD's can close the distance and shoot under strikes faster than you can strike. Brock will get KO'ed before he can take Overeem down, whats he going to do when overeem starts using those knees in the clinch, plus a 255lb guy is not as easy to take down as a 170lb guy, the state of the WW division and wrestling does not cross over into the other divisions, especially HW.

Brock is not exactly a TD master, nor does it suit the division, he had problems taking Couture down and Overeem is bigger, stringer and would be harder to take down, if he spends time in the clinch like he did with Couture before the take downs, he will get hurt with those knees, against Carwin he was outclassed on his feet and could not take him down cleanly, he would get destroyed by Overeem on the feet, there would be no Cardio comeback ether, I would have it, Overeem 1st round KO every time.

I think your assumption on wrestling been the dominant force is confused, Brock is not GSP, he does not shoot nearly as quick at his weight and this is not WW where you can condition your body to shoot quick enough and be strong enough for the TD to be able to avoid a striking game all together against guys who are a lot smaller and lighter to TD.



Its pointless arguing wins with some people like this, have you heard yourself serioly, your argument is "your wisn dont count unless you beat a guy who is signed up to the UFC" yea whatever, thats all the rely on to make there fights sound better, the notion that "you have not beat any of our guys so there for you wins dont count"

That is nothing but marketing propaganda, of course those win count and mean something, and the only reason the UFC guys have not been beat by the guys outside the UFC is because the UFC protects its fighters from fighting guys on the circuit, yea thats right its the UFC that says "our guys wont fight outsiders", and you know why that is right, because how bad would it look if they where to do a cross promotion and there guys where to loose. SF on the other hand have down cross promotion with some of there top fighters and they have been winning, proving they are the best of the rest, UFC only claims to be, its about time they had there fighters step up and prove it.
sure, lets compare randys elite wrestling with overeem, overeem is bigger so clearly he would keep the fight standing

sure overeem is big but you actually think he can stop brocks TDs??? um, carwin and randy are WRESTLERS, very good wrestlers, you saying since carwin and randy stopped lesnars takedowns so overeem can too is like saying carwin couldnt knock out brock so he cant knock overeem out too!

theres no connection what so ever, brock would take overeem down and GnP him to a TKO, overeems only chance is cacthing him coming in...dont tell me you think overeem is faster than brock too (not talking about striking)

werdum vs mir is a tough one, mir would probably want to keep the fight standing, if he caught big nog he could catch werdum, though this one is really a toss, i could see either won getting a win here

carwin vs rogers - please...even though both have crap cardio carwin has more power and wrestling on his side, rogers hasnt proved anything yet

barnett vs cain - barnett JUST got signed, so i wasnt including him in the list of HWs before, though im not sure, i dont know how barnett is today, he was amazing but i really gotta see him fight in SF to really breakdown this fight nowadays, though if i had to choose right now i would go with barnett, the dude is incredible but cain is faster, better cardio, better wrestling...not much KO power though and doesnt have the subs of barnett...i think barnett would end up subbing him though like i said i have no idea how he is nowadays

fedor vs JDS - JDS has some amazing power man and very good boxing, no doubt he would catch fedor a couple of times and that might just KO him, though since JDS couldnt put nelson away id guess that he couldnt put fedor away either, but all he has is a punchers chance, but still, i agree, fedor would probably destroy him

the only true HWs in SF that could actually be a threat for sure is fedor and barnett really, overeem still has to be tested, i agree he was amazing skill right now but his chin is still questionable and has no wrestling, something that is dominating the HW scene right now in the UFC but he does have potential

but it doesnt work like that, you cant choose 2 guys, see who wins and then say ''ok now SF is better than UFC'' wich fighter would be able to beat them all? wich one would climb up to being #1 contender or champ?

only 3 are possible, fedor, barnett, overeem....but like i said, lets wait till overeem proves himself against an elite fighter to reall consider him
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Old 09-13-2010, 03:25 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Interesting signing by SF. I'm happy to see the organization bulking up, so to speak. I won't get into how unbelievably, and borderline ignorantly biased Killer Shark is. It's not worth my time. What I will say, however, is that all of his ripping on the UFC HW division, and his never ending talk about how much of a 'joke' Lesnar is is just that. Talk. I'd hate to burst your biased bubble (and the manner in which you write shows no objectivity whatsoever, so don't claim to be impartial in the least), but chances are more than good that Lesnar would beat, with potential ease, the likes of Werdrum, Silva, Rogers, Barnett, and even Overeem (who I happen to be a fan of). The only top SF heavyweight I might show deference to is Fedor, and that's based more on history than anything. I simply cannot see any other as being capable of dealing with Lesnar's style. At all.

I won't get into the other HWs right now. It's all a matter of opinion, and hence, no one will ever win. I'll simply say that both organizations have very interesting and compelling HW divisions, and we should be happy about this, as it allows us some semblance of variety. Why one or two dimwits always has to turn this into a dick measuring contest is beyond me. We're all MMA fans... so why not appreciate what each organization has to offer us? That said, I do know that calling either division a 'joke' is itself a joke. Condescendingly mentioning Roy Nelson yet making no mention whatsoever of Stefan Struve or a potential ground and pound monster in Christian Morecraft shows how little weight your opinions should hold. And acting as though an aging, perhaps over the hill Barnett is somehow this magnificent signing when UFC has much better, much younger variations of the same fighter in Lesnar and Cain is even more ridiculous. This will be all I have to say on the matter, because again, it's opinion. And in your case, it's biased opinion, which I have little time or tolerance for. I'll end with a previous point. Both divisions are talent rich. And both will provide us with some very exciting fights in the future. That's really all that matters.

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Old 09-13-2010, 04:01 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I wonder if Barnett will screw Strikeforce like he did Affliction. How can anybody take Barnett seriously after that fiasco?
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