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Old 11-02-2010, 08:34 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Toxic View Post
Your compelety rejecting the context of when they were fighting. In ten years Fedor/Rogers/Overeem/Barnett will be no more credible than Saku/Coleman/Herring/Frye. Its the nature of the beast but at the time its hard to argue they weren't important. You mock talking of Sakuraba which just goes to show your ignorance of his historical signifigance. Without Sakuraba there would have been no Pride and likely there would not be a Dream today only Funaki an Suzuki have more historical significance to MMA in Japan. Strikeforce has yet to have a fighter come through there doors who has been as historically significant for there company. All those people I named drew money and were popular stars in there day but because you don't understand there significance in the proper context your can't possibly come to terms and understand just how important they were in there era. The comparison between SF and Pride is ludicrous Pride was and international phenomenon while SF is a step above a regional promotion.
the sport is very young, it was about a decade ago when coleman won the grand prix, it hadent change as much. one of the top dogs back then Fedor is still among the top. i didnt mock sakuraba i said hes a pioneer, just like royce gracie and mark coleman were. but they were great at the level they were fighting. they would never beat a guy like Jacare or Fedor.

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Originally Posted by RustyRenegade View Post
You're digging yourself deeper 86. Not gonna gain any fans by bashing pride
i used to love pride. i used to tell everybody how pride has better fighters in every weight class then ufc at the time. i also loved the entrances like was said earlier, the respect and the like. but im just comparing it to strikeforce which is considered the bush league of mma today (maybe if it is compared to ufc) but people dont realize that even though Pride>UFC back then and UFC>>>SF today, pride and sf are on about the same level. it was ufc that changed 3-4 times. SF=Pride.

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Originally Posted by VolcomX311 View Post
The Honda Center which hosted that last Brock/Cain fight seats 17,174 people.
The Cesar's Palace Colosseum which hosts Major boxing and MMA events seats 4,296 people.
The Saiatama Super Arena was selling out 37,000 seats for an MMA event, 10-15 years ago.

That said, I did hate all that shady, Triad fight set up BS, but apart from that, PRIDE was a sick generation.
this is not a bonus for pride but rather a minus. pride had so many seated fans and yet you could hear crickets. if it was a small crowd and was as loud as thunder then i would say it was great.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:02 PM   #22 (permalink)

 
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Originally Posted by UFC86 View Post
the sport is very young, it was about a decade ago when coleman won the grand prix, it hadent change as much. one of the top dogs back then Fedor is still among the top. i didnt mock sakuraba i said hes a pioneer, just like royce gracie and mark coleman were. but they were great at the level they were fighting. they would never beat a guy like Jacare or Fedor.
But if your gonna compare SF to Pride and try to put them on the same level you need to have people to fill those voids of both popularity and sucess that those fighters like Coleman and Sakuraba filled in Pride, instead your just saying they aren't relevent now which is true but when comparing talent rosters they are very relevant.


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i used to love pride. i used to tell everybody how pride has better fighters in every weight class then ufc at the time. i also loved the entrances like was said earlier, the respect and the like. but im just comparing it to strikeforce which is considered the bush league of mma today (maybe if it is compared to ufc) but people dont realize that even though Pride>UFC back then and UFC>>>SF today, pride and sf are on about the same level. it was ufc that changed 3-4 times. SF=Pride.
Except its not true, globally UFC may be Prides equal now. Strikeforce is nowhere near the global phenom that Pride was and has been nowhere near as sucessful.


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this is not a bonus for pride but rather a minus. pride had so many seated fans and yet you could hear crickets. if it was a small crowd and was as loud as thunder then i would say it was great.
That is a culture thing though. In Japan being loud and boisterous like a UFC crowd would be seen as very disrespectful.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:05 PM   #23 (permalink)
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this is not a bonus for pride but rather a minus. pride had so many seated fans and yet you could hear crickets. if it was a small crowd and was as loud as thunder then i would say it was great.
The fact that the arena was quiet really doesn't attest to anything. I'd say it's a culture thing more than anything. Here in the US people like to yell and boo and whatnot. So what? It's not like over in Japan they were sleeping during the fights or something. They definitely did react when something big happened. Respectful and knowledgeable. If only crowds nowadays would learn a thing or two from them.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:29 PM   #24 (permalink)
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But if your gonna compare SF to Pride and try to put them on the same level you need to have people to fill those voids of both popularity and sucess that those fighters like Coleman and Sakuraba filled in Pride, instead your just saying they aren't relevent now which is true but when comparing talent rosters they are very relevant.


Except its not true, globally UFC may be Prides equal now. Strikeforce is nowhere near the global phenom that Pride was and has been nowhere near as sucessful.

That is a culture thing though. In Japan being loud and boisterous like a UFC crowd would be seen as very disrespectful.
so how do you expect strikeforce to fill those voids? you want them to sign these fighters right now and that will make them greater then pride? coleman was released by ufc and sakuraba lost quite a few. of course theyre past their prime, but you cannot say marciano was greater then Ali because he was earlier or that George Mikan was greater then Kareem Abdul Jabbar. fighters were not as good as they are now and we can compare because its a relatively new sport.

what do you mean by pride being "global"? ufc is spreading to countries where pride never was and very fast.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:32 PM   #25 (permalink)
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No. [/end thread]
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:37 PM   #26 (permalink)

 
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Originally Posted by UFC86 View Post
so how do you expect strikeforce to fill those voids? you want them to sign these fighters right now and that will make them greater then pride? coleman was released by ufc and sakuraba lost quite a few. of course theyre past their prime, but you cannot say marciano was greater then Ali because he was earlier or that George Mikan was greater then Kareem Abdul Jabbar. fighters were not as good as they are now and we can compare because its a relatively new sport.

what do you mean by pride being "global"? ufc is spreading to countries where pride never was and very fast.
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Fedor, Ubereem, Werdum, Antonio Silva, Barnett compared to Pride that had Fedor, Cro Cop, Big Nog, Barnett
What do you think your doing right here? Your comparing using guys like Ubereem and Werdum to fill the voids of Cro Cop and Big Now. The thing is your comparing SF's entire roster to a mere portion of Prides.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:40 PM   #27 (permalink)
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What do you think your doing right here? Your comparing using guys like Ubereem and Werdum to fill the voids of Cro Cop and Big Now. The thing is your comparing SF's entire roster to a mere portion of Prides.
but im filling voids with comparable fighters. royce gracie, sakuraba and coleman were the best when everybody was 1d. mark coleman would have never beaten barnett or fedor since they came to the big shows. in terms of pioneers obviously pride was greater cause all strikeforce had at the time was josh thomson if im not mistaken.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:43 PM   #28 (permalink)

 
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But Coleman was still a marquee name so you need to fill that void. Sakuraba is one of the most beloved fighters in the history of the sport.
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Old 11-02-2010, 09:54 PM   #29 (permalink)
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so youre saying strikeforce today is comparable with ufc of back then? like i said ufc currently is 3-4 times bigger then it was back then. who they had? @HW sylvia and arlovski @lhw Liddell, Couture and Tito and im not even sure they had a 155 division that only had Sherk and Penn.
I don't know if I can compare today's strikeforce with lets say 06 UFC, cus strikeforce apparently has lame organization, like i said before they can't put good fights together. But comparing the roosters i'd say todays strikeforce has pretty even rooster as 06 UFC. As for todays UFC, when pride "died" majority of the fighters went to UFC, the bad thing about it most of them are not in their prime anymore so people are saying "yeah, they were never actually good it's just that they can't compete with what UFC has to offer!" which is not true, not by far! Those who are out of their prime (nogueira, cro cop, wanderlei, rampage maybe, henderson) are all 30+ years old and all of them with 30+ fights. There are former pride fighters that are champions in UFC right now...Shogun and Anderson. And there are those who WOULD be in pride today if pride was still alive...velasquez, JDS, Machida, infact every fighter in UFC that's above avarage and that didn't come from TUF would be in pride today + every fighter in strikeforce cus strikeforce is a joke and beside, if pride didn't fall appart they'd still have 5 fighters under their contract!)

Quote:
Originally Posted by UFC86
now i know Cro Cop and Big Nog were at their prime and way better fighters then they are today, but they are in ufc now so i dont compare them to their current state. i compare cro cop and big nog to ubereem and werdum, and i think fedor and barnett only deteriorated slightly. also Pride didnt have a steroid testing requirement implanted, im not going to point any fingers, but the likelihood of fighters taking steroids increases when there is no testing involved (for example when did barnett win a big fight when there was steroid testing implented, and he passed the test?).

regarding the fighters you listed-Frye- entertaining pioneer but not more. goodridge- overrated arm wrestler coleman- great as a pioneer but not as mma evolved yvel-horrible in pride herring- definetly not top 5 schilt hunt kharitonov- 1d strikers with no achievements in mma yoshida- couldnt beat royce gracie dana white-only good in pancrase sakuraba- pioneer and thats it rampage-only became good in ufc horn randleman and minowaman- come on!

pride probably had more depth, but who cares about that when its fighters that are on ultimate fighter reject levels? lots of fighters crossed over from pro wrestling and couldnt fight, or were just freakshows (giant silva for example). strikeforce seems to try and stay away from freakshows (they rejected the possibility of signing kimbo)
I'll respond on this 2...regarding illegal substances, they are present in UFC aswell even though you'll probably deny it or whatever but to be honest i don't care cus i have my sources to claim that and i'm 110% sure it's true maybe not so spread as in pride but there are illegal substances in UFC for sure, so i'll skip it. What caught my attention are those descriptions you wrote about frye, goodridge coleman etc..let me remind you that they were pretty dominant in UFC at some point, some of them even held the title at the time so i wouldn't say they were overrated. Once you're out of prime doesn't mean you were always lame! frye was 6-1 in UFC, came to pride won 3 and then he lost few fights and it was over for him but i wouldn't call him an "entertainer", he was 15-1 at some point of his career and that was when he was 36 years old so if you call that an entertainer then i don't know who's a real fighter for you. Goodridge overrated arm wrestler? ok i admit, he was nothing special but we all still remember THIS right? Coleman is average if we look on his complete career (infact he's lame right now) but looking at 1996-2001 he was a killer back then. Yvel was lame in pride, i give you that and he's lame right now aswell .. he was pretty good before pride though 22-4...herring was average, i mean even his record speaks like it...i'll skip those strikers cus they ain't really nothing else but strikers, what really caught my attention here was "sakuraba- pioneer (explain please..)" and "rampage-only became good in ufc"..made me laugh ....rampage did beat at that time UFC's nr1 guy you know? ... and yeah, the freak shows lol...apparently the japanese public seems to like fight like big dude vs small dude, i don't see any other reason of having freak shows in their rooster..i mean, look at kaoklai vs hong man choi fight lol...it was a k-1 fight but it's not like we haven't seen such things in pride ...i love UFC and freak show thing you mentioned (picking their fighters) is one of the things why but like i said before pride was making more interesting fights..you could watch a pride fight card and pay attention to every single fight on the card with exactly the same enthusiasm being a main event or the lamest fight on the card you'd still watch it with joy..in ufc some fights on the card are just lame, take UFC 122 fight card as example, on that card every fight is lame including main event. So like Dana White says, "we're in entertaining business", you gotta include freak shows to make people watch it! I mean, tell me you don't enjoy watching some small dude beating up a giant?

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Old 11-02-2010, 10:18 PM   #30 (permalink)
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No. [/end thread]
I agree. This thread is turning into a useless debate since nobody in their right mind would think that Strikeforce is even near to the level Pride was.
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