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Old 12-27-2010, 06:00 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
He also fought Jeremy Horn, Babalu and Tito, if anything Chuck had one of the most padded records in MMA, atleast while he was Champion.
Who's a jigga whut?

Lets look at his record while champion shall we:
Randy Couture (gained title) 13-7 at the time
Jeremy Horn 76-14 at the time, definition of a can crusher
Randy Couture (again).
Renato Sobral 30-6 at the time, smallish LHW, but held wins against top competition (Mauricio Rua and Chael Sonnen)
Tito Ortiz 15-4 at the time, just coming off wins against Griffin, and Shamrock (<--that used to mean something!)
Rampage Jackson (lost title) 27-6 at the time, Koed Chuck with his patented counter hook.

Moral: Chuck Liddell fought the very best competition the UFC had available at LHW, and chewed them up and spat them out. There is only one fighter on that list anyone could consider a "padded" opponent (Horn).


On the original subject. Strikeforce doesn't always try to compete with the UFC. I think when they tried to do it the first time, they made an enemy of Dana White (probably a bad idea). Since then they've been labeled as competition for the UFC. Strikeforce definitely lacks the quality depth the UFC enjoys in most respects. I would say that their HW divisions are the closest, but the UFC still has the better, by a wide margin.
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Old 12-27-2010, 08:09 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Mike28 View Post
I agree with some points. Strikeforce has some guys who I think can do really well in the UFC. But other than the HW division, Strikeforce does not have a lot of depth. I do believe Overeem, Fedor, Werdum, Silva are very good fighters. I think Overeem would do well in the UFC but he doesn't fight often enough in MMA. The LHW division is not deep at all. I really like Feijao and think he would do well in the UFC and we all know Henderson was very good in the UFC as well. Mousassi is good but i don't think he would be top 5 in the UFC. In the MW division I really like Jacare and Mayhem. I think they would do well in the UFC as well. Outside of that there is not much depth there. WW only really has Diaz and Daley is top fighters. Cyborg is not a top 10 WW. LW there is really only Milendez. He needs to go to the UFC quickly. There is nothing for him in Strikeforce other than a fight with Noons but he is coming off a loss.
the think about depth at SF is because of there willingness to co-promote this opens the door to anyone on the MMA circuit outside the UFC, SF commonly pull in fighters from elsewhere to face there contacted guys, as also there contacted guys often travel elsewhere to fight which is good for them because SF dont have the quantity of shows of the UFC.

For example I would be very surprised if we did not get to see Melendez vs Alvarez this year, in return I would not be surprised if SF waws to send a MW over to Bellator to face Lombard or if they entered one of there fighters into one of the Bellator tournaments. I recall do think its only a matter of time until they co-promote with Bellator.

Another thing its that every division at SF grew last year not just the HW division, at the UFC sure there expansion with 2 new divisions was bigger in overall quantity, I would say the MW division showed a healthy improvement, the LW division was insane and the WW division remained good not much gained only Shields but nothing really lost so a small step in the right direction there. But the HW and LHW divisions fell with a ever increasing number of fighters passing there prime or been cut while no sufficient replacements where made.

SF expansion was a lot more focused and evenly distributed amongst all areas, the HW was the main focus but nowhere else suffered due to this division been given the most focus.
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Old 12-28-2010, 12:45 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I see your point about being able to send fighers to places to fight and being able to co promote but look at how many top fights have come from that so far. Not many. I love seeing great fights with top guys in the rankings so I just want to see the top guys in Strikeforce fight eachother. Fedor vs Overeem should have already happened. Overeem vs Werdum should have happened. Those are my biggest objections at the moment. I would love to see Strikeforce get everything set up to see these big fights. And the UFC used to send its fighters to Pride as well. Dana White sent Liddell to Pride to enter the tournaments so Liddell could fight Wanderlei. But Rampage derailed those ideas.
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Old 12-28-2010, 06:05 PM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
How can people….I don’t wanna say like because I do like Strikeforce, they put on great fights, but as competition to the UFC, how can you honestly see them as such?
I haven't seen one hardcore poster come onto this board and say that STRIKEFORCE is a superior product or better than the UFC..


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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Take Nick Diaz for example.

I don’t make too much about it, because I like being here, but I’m about as Anti-GSP as you can get, diehard BJ fan, don’t like GSP at all, but GSP is fighting the best in the world constantly, as drawn out as that sounds.

Thiago Alves, Dan Hardy, and Josh Koscheck = All Top Ten.
Actually Dan Hardy kinda sucks... but not taking away from GSPs level l of competition, it's been very very impressive.... However you do know that Thiago has no ground game right? Fish out of water.. Taylor made for GSP....

I however for the record think that GSP is the #1 WW fighter in the world hands down. I don't think that anybody has debated this point either..

His last test is going to the be the ground generalship of Jake Shields.. I've long said I beleive that he's gonna have a big problem with Jake.. but until GSP can be dethroned he's most definatly still the #1 WW in MMA and I haven't seen anyone here make a case other wise...

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Marius Žaromskis, Hayato Sakurai, and KJ Noons
I love how Marius Zaromskis has become this can all of a sudden... The Whitemare was coming into that fight winning 9 of his last 10...holding a WW title and just winning a WW grand prix... if losing 2 in a row makes you bad competition than... most fighters in mma suck.

Sakurai...I have to say Mach is getting up there in age so I wont argue that he's not a title challenger..... but you do know that Mach didn't challenge Nick for that WW title right? Nick took that fight in Japan because he wanted some money...

And K.J. Noons... Nick wanted that fight. He avenged a loss that has been haunting him. And if you think K.J. is some chump you're mistaken.. K.J. was on a 6 fight win streak going into that fight and he was red hot.... and he's got some of the most dangerous hands in Strikeforce. That was a solid fight.

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Not the worst competition, okay guys but not top ten, I know Sakurai was a long time ago, and Marius is the DREAM Champ, but would he beat Alves, Hardy, or Koscheck in a fight? Doubtful. Let’s look at their upcoming fights.
You got too much faith in Dan Hardy. Hardy is a 1 trick pony who can even get beat at his own game and that makes him worse..

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
GSP’s next fight? Jake Shields.

Nick Diaz? …..Cyborg.

Yeah…..Cyborg.

Cyborg is not a top ten guy, and he’s really in there just for Diaz to beat, enough about the 170’s though
You have to keep under consideration that STRIKEFORCE's WW division is the youngest division on their roster..... and once agains nobody has claimed this division to be superior to the UFCs WW division... however guys like Tyron Woodley and Saffedine will prove to make it interesting... as well as Paul Daley and you will see new talent come along.

Can't wait for that. I would have rather seen Diaz fight Miller. But yeah doesn't look like thats in the works anytime soon...


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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
how about….Light Heavyweight?

Dan Henderson is next for Feijao, okay.

Feijao has KO power, but let’s be real, you’re not gonna KO Hendo.
Wow... Feijao has a brutal clinch that he shreds his opponents with is what he's got... and yes KO power as well as good TD and a solid ground game. He's one of the original Blackhouse fighters and has been training partners of the Nogs and Anderson Silva for years.

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Henderson should win by making Feijao wrestle him, I think that’s likely,.
Dan Henderson's got his hands full with Rafael Feijao. I think Feijao wins via TKO in round 3 or 4..

Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
but who's next after Hendo/Feijao? Regardless of the winner. Mousasi? Interesting fight, but we all saw his TDD get exposed against King Mo, a fight with Henderson goes the same way, Feijao would be different, it’d be fun while it lasted but Mousasi could easily take that fight. Would this even happen? Mousasi’s the DREAM Champion at 205, he has business to take care of there.

Even after Mousasi, whose next? King Mo? Please.
"King Mo? Please." are you kidding yourself? King Mo is a beast. Dude's got one of the best wrestling pedigrees in MMA. And he's got brutal KO power. You can choose to not be a fan that's fine.. but writing him off as if he's some kind of joke is pretty insulting and ridiculous. Get off your high horse for a second and give these fighters their due.

Also lining up at LHW since you're asking you have

Ovince St Preux.... OSP is on a tear right now... 6 fight win streak all 6 in 2010, 4 of those are finishes. That is damn impressive. And he's already got his next fight lined up. He'll be taking on Abongo next. He puts Humphrey away in dramatic fasion and he's putting all LHWs on notice. No doubt. Abongo is a tough opponent for anybody. So this fight is very interesting for both LHWs.

Mike Kyle.... he's won four of his last five. That sole loss coming to Bigfoot at HW.... a fight that Mike Kyle took on 5 days notice. And he damn near KOed Bigfoot in the first round. Later it became pretty obvious that Silva was just too damn big for Kyle... his last loss before that was to... Fabricio Werdum another HW.. Kyle hasn't lost at LHW for about 3 years. Mike Kyle has feirce power in his hands and he's putting his game together well at AKA with some serious compeditors. Mike Kyle is in the mix.

Trevor Prangley.. he just helped to stuff Keith Jardines return aspirations down his throat a few months ago..he's only lost 1 of his last 8 and he's beaten guys like Chael Sonnen, Travis Lutter, and Matt Horwich..... he's fighting Roger Gracie next... another LHW threat.



Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
What about the Heavyweights?

Some say they have a better Heavyweight Division than the UFC, I dispute that, we know for a fact, the UFC’s number two is better than Strikeforce’s number two, that’s all we know in regards to that. Strikeforce does have a nice Heavyweight division, they want to do an eight man tournament in 2011.

They have the talent, they also have Alistair Overeem’s K-1 aspirations and M-1 to deal with, not to mention Barnett getting licensed in the states will be difficult.

They should just make Overeem vs. Werdum.
Not really going to touch this.. you're talking about aspirations and MMA math... that has no bearing on talent at all.

But since you're talkin HWs show some respect to Daniel Cormier and Shane Del Rosario they earn it in every fight.

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
What about the Middleweights?

Well, there’s Mayhem, Robbie Lawler, and a few guys. Jacare is in my opinion leaps and bounds better than these guys, I think he could easily be number 2 in the world, number 1 when Anderson retires. They have a nice division but only Jacare stands out.
You ever hear of Tim Kennedy? Dude is a beast. I'd put him a notch past Lawler at this point in the game..

You've also got Yancy Meidros a solid undefeated up and comer he's finishing almost everybody he fights... his TKO of LHW Poai Suganuma showed how sick heavy his hands are.

And there is also Melvin Manhoef.. he can KO a giant. ATT has him working his BJJ right now imagine a Melvin Manhoef with a sick ground game? yikes

Quote:
Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
And the Lightweights?

Gilbert Melendez can’t even get a fight, he might as well just pack his bags and head to the UFC, when you have to politic for a fight, as a Champion no less, something is really wrong.
He wants to fight Eddie Alvarez (Bellator) And Paul Daley (WW) both of these guys are just a tad out of his reach due to obvious issues..

But when you say "look at the LWs" you are insinuating that it has no talent and you are once again putting these fighters down for no reason....

Guys like Josh Thompson, Jorge Masvidal, Justin Wilcox, Billy Evangelista, K.J. Noons, J.Z Cavalcante, and Lyle Beerbohm are some of the best in the world.. LW in strikeforce is a gauntlet of talent right now.

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Again, I like Strikeforce but I’ve not seen anything from that shows me they’re a competitor, I think it’s a shame DREAM can’t get more of those guys, I believe they’d make a much better number 2 to the UFC.
Wow.... you do know that the STRIKEFORCE roster has abosolutly destroyed the DREAM fighters right?

Either way... the bottem line is that I haven't seen a poster come on to this forum and say that STRIKEFORCE is better than the UFC. And I monitor thousands of posts here..

It's alway a paranoid reaction from a UFC fan that gets these debates going. SF is an up and coming MMA organization very heavy in talent... why not enjoy it... Dana White may think you're cheating on him a little bit... but in the end of the day I'm always gonna be an MMA fan not just a UFC fan.
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Old 12-28-2010, 07:20 PM   #15 (permalink)

 
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Rival, I don't care how good you think Feijao's clinch is if you think he wants to get into a clinch situation with Hendo your insane, guy is a greco roman machine. Feijao is not gonna get into a clinch with him and risk ending up on his back.
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Old 12-28-2010, 07:43 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Rival, I don't care how good you think Feijao's clinch is if you think he wants to get into a clinch situation with Hendo your insane, guy is a greco roman machine. Feijao is not gonna get into a clinch with him and risk ending up on his back.
It wouldn't surprise me if he did. He goes to his clinch so naturally during a fight he'll probably do it while he's reacting.
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Old 12-28-2010, 07:58 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Ladies^^ I don't think that matters that much..

the winner of Feijao/Hendo has to fight a new improved "unbeatable" version of The Dreamcatcher
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Old 12-28-2010, 08:19 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Hendo's going to get TKO'ed?

Sorry, but he fought Rampage and Wand twice, I doubt Feijao will do it, even if Hendo is up there in age, his chin is still as good as it's always been and I haven't seen any evidence that he's slowed down.

Gilbert's already beat Josh, he's clearly a class above all the Lightweights, they do have talent but Gilbert's a big fish in a small pond, he's just that good.

Tim Kennedy? Yeah, I know him. Jacare just beat him, and could probably beat most of the UFC's top middleweights.

Manhoef with striking and grappling is a pretty scary guy, but his chin lets him down at points in his career.

King Mo, might have a good wrestling pedigree but Feijao showed, keep it on the feet, you can beat him there. How would he handle the sweeps of Shogun? Could he out-wrestle guys like Rampage and Rashad? Could he deal with Jones and Machida's striking?

I never considered Zaromskis elite, I don't think he can hang with an elite welterweight.

You bring up Dan Hardy a lot, truth is, anyone that stands with Dan would probably get KO'ed, he's tough as nails and yeah in his last fight he was finished by Condit. Condit finishes just about everyone he fights, you can also argue had Hardy landed first he would have KO'ed Condit, but it's a moot point. Condit won, sadly.

And I still believe Feijao is horribly overrated and that he isn't top ten and if he ever came to the UFC, it'd show.
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Old 12-29-2010, 02:34 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Hendo's going to get TKO'ed?

Sorry, but he fought Rampage and Wand twice, I doubt Feijao will do it, even if Hendo is up there in age, his chin is still as good as it's always been and I haven't seen any evidence that he's slowed down.

Gilbert's already beat Josh, he's clearly a class above all the Lightweights, they do have talent but Gilbert's a big fish in a small pond, he's just that good.

Tim Kennedy? Yeah, I know him. Jacare just beat him, and could probably beat most of the UFC's top middleweights.

Manhoef with striking and grappling is a pretty scary guy, but his chin lets him down at points in his career.

King Mo, might have a good wrestling pedigree but Feijao showed, keep it on the feet, you can beat him there. How would he handle the sweeps of Shogun? Could he out-wrestle guys like Rampage and Rashad? Could he deal with Jones and Machida's striking?

I never considered Zaromskis elite, I don't think he can hang with an elite welterweight.

You bring up Dan Hardy a lot, truth is, anyone that stands with Dan would probably get KO'ed, he's tough as nails and yeah in his last fight he was finished by Condit. Condit finishes just about everyone he fights, you can also argue had Hardy landed first he would have KO'ed Condit, but it's a moot point. Condit won, sadly.

And I still believe Feijao is horribly overrated and that he isn't top ten and if he ever came to the UFC, it'd show.
Hardy's striking and KO power are incredibly overated. The guy has only stopped one of his opponents in the UFC in Markham, and I dont even know if he is in the UFC anymore. Hardy isnt the elite striker that people make him out to be.
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Old 12-29-2010, 05:58 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Hendo's going to get TKO'ed?

Sorry, but he fought Rampage and Wand twice, I doubt Feijao will do it, even if Hendo is up there in age,
Rampage? lol you do know that Rampage has only finished 1 of his last 6 fights right?

And Wandy has only finished one of his last 7.

It doesn't surprise me that neither could finish Hendo.

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his chin is still as good as it's always been and I haven't seen any evidence that he's slowed down.
I don't think he's slowed down either.

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Gilbert's already beat Josh, he's clearly a class above all the Lightweights, they do have talent but Gilbert's a big fish in a small pond, he's just that good.
I agree that he's that good. He's a beast. But right now he wants marquee names. There are fighters that are just as dangerous but he knows thats not how you gain respect.

Now days you have to beat a big name not a tough opponent... thats because the rankings system is all screwed up..

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Tim Kennedy? Yeah, I know him. Jacare just beat him, and could probably beat most of the UFC's top middleweights.
Kennedy is a monster and with guys like Miller and Lawler floating around and up and comers rising the MW division is still building.. keep in mind this org is a very new promotion in comparison to the UFC..

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Manhoef with striking and grappling is a pretty scary guy, but his chin lets him down at points in his career.
Sometimes I don't even think it's his chin I think he commits himself so much to a punch that he damn near runs face first into an opponents fist.. anyone would go down with that kind of technique.. he really needs to discipline that..HIs holes are there but they can be worked on. And if he improves he will hold a world title make no mistake about it..

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King Mo, might have a good wrestling pedigree but Feijao showed, keep it on the feet, you can beat him there.
Feijao pretty much beats everybody on the feet though. His best friend and training partner is Anderson Silva and has been for years. I think Feijao is just that good on the feet. He's been KOed just once in his entire carreer.

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How would he handle the sweeps of Shogun?
We're not even sure how well Shogun can sweep right now and you know that.. he's had so many injuries and the last time we saw him spend more that 15 seconds on the ground he was submitted by Forrest Griffin.


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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Could he out-wrestle guys like Rampage and Rashad?
If he outwrestled Mo it wouldn't surprise me.


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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
Could he deal with Jones and Machida's striking?
That's a good question.. keep in mind I'm not saying that Rafael Feijao is the #1 LHW in the world. I'm simply saying I don't beleive he's over rated.

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You bring up Dan Hardy a lot, truth is, anyone that stands with Dan would probably get KO'ed,
That's not true.


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Condit. Condit finishes just about everyone he fights,
Problem is Hardy was finished playing his own game... that is a big problem when you're a 1 trick pony like he is..

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Originally Posted by EliteUndisputed View Post
And I still believe Feijao is horribly overrated and that he isn't top ten and if he ever came to the UFC, it'd show.
We're gonna have to agree to disagree here.. I think he'd be top ten very easy and eventually work his way into the top 5.
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