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Old 02-14-2011, 01:54 PM   #11 (permalink)
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As for Bigfoot Silva, I am still not sure. Coming into the fight I thought he was a tad overrated. Each time he is given a solid opponent he usually struggles. He lost a stand up fight to Werdum.

After the Fedor thrashing, I respect his skills much more, but I'm still not sure if he is elite material. He is well-rounded and can do many things well. But can he strike with Overeem? WHat if Werdum beats Overeem? Is he going to get out struck again? Can he take a guy like Overeem down and control him?

To me he is a real solid HW. Top 10 for sure now. Maybe he has turned a corner in his career and is starting to put it all together. I just have my doubts when the Kyle fight was not long ago...then he dismantles a top 3 or 5 HW. Still can't tell what he is.

We all know what Werdum's strategy vs. Overeem is, get it to the ground and sub his ass. What would Silva's plan be? Most likely the same thing, but his level of BJJ is far less than Werdum's. Will be interesting to see, but I see Overeem running through everyone at this point because none of these guys are strong enough wrestlers outside of Barnett.
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:55 PM   #12 (permalink)
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This is actually a decent list, especially coming from you.

I see no reason how you can even mention Rogers in the top 10 though. He has seriously 1 decent win in his life...and that is vs. AA who everyone can beat now a days. He has 2 losses to 2 of the best, and just almost lost to a guy with a sub .500 record. I don't see how 1 win vs. a guy like Arlovski is enough to mention him in the top 10. I mean he could at least have 1 more credible win in his whole career. Mir hasn't been great, but at least he has beat guys who are relevant to the game. It gets thin any way you cut it towards the end of the top 10 at HW, but Mir has beat more than 1 glass jaw'd opponent in his life.

I don't see how Rogers is even a top 15 HW at this point. The rest of the list is solid in my opinion.
Well that is something that will be resolved when we see Mir vs Nelson and Rogers vs Barnett, but I don't think you are giving AA or Rogers quite enough credit at present, looking at the fighters who would be floating round about from 10 to 15 like Nelson, Schaub, Struve, Nogueira I think Rogers currently defiantly belongs to be in the shout so would AA if not for such a touch run of level of competition recently, Kharitonov would have just replaced AA in the top 15 now making them Nelson, Schaub, Struve, Nogueira, Kharitonov in what ever order you like, and its close any one of these fighters could enter or be dropped from the top 10 with just 1 win or loss, come the end of the GP who knows maybe Kharitonov will seal himself a top 10 spot pushing both Mir and Rogers out.

As for what your saying about Big Foot and his fight with Werdum, maybe Bigfoot did not have the confidence to believe in his GnP top control strategy which is his main strength against Werdum, maybe Werdum would have had the ground skills to stop Big Foot on the ground, maybe it was just one of those fights sure Bigfoots stand up is nothing to shout about but he can survive on his feet which against 9 out of 10 opponents will keep him around long enough for him to win the TD and get him where he is at his best which is on th ground on top, maybe Werdum is a guy he just did not want to take there.
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Old 02-14-2011, 01:59 PM   #13 (permalink)
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If you want to see an MMA analysis view that is not UFC biased on the current, then I consider myself an excellent judge of this in the HW division especially, am good with the LHW division as well, but am so far ahead of the division hype that others caught in the hype are still catching up, dont do P4P at all as its pointless imo in a sport where different styles suit different divisions.

Some say I am anti-UFC pro SF in my opinions but this is not true, how many times do the guys who say that claim statements like "he should goto SF to face a lower level of opponents" when talking about someone failing in the UFC, I just call it how it is and if the fighters in SF are more skilled than the ones in the UFC then I give then the credit they deserve, its not been biased against the UFC if many of the top fighter in the sport especially the HW division are not in the UFC at present its just the way it is, if people can't accept that and see it as biased against the UFC then fine but it remains the truth.

Anyway here is my Top 10 HW list

Cain
Overeem
JDS
Werdum
Bigfoot
Fedor
Brock
Carwin
Barnett
Mir or Rogers

Bare in mind what makes the difference between fighters next to each other is fractions, took many people see a lit like this and act as if its saying Overeem is Miles better than JDS for example because he is ranked higher when in fact the difference could sometimes be measured on a knifes edge and chance in just one fight.

The Mir vs Rogers shout for No.10 sport to make a clear top 10 will sort its self out over the next fights for both fighters, its quite an interesting situation If Rogers beats Barnett then he cements himself in the current top 10, possibility pushing Mir or Barnett himself out, depending on overall performance in the fights.

If Mir beats Nelson and Rogers Loses then its clear that Mir takes that spot.

If both Mir and Rogers win then is more than likely to push Barnett out the top ten and Mir and Rogers will be 9 and 10 in a very close battle possibility edged by Rogers having just come off a win over a slightly higher ranked opponent with Barnett than Mir against Nelson who just resides outside the top 10 listing 12th or 13th.

If Nelson gets a convincing win over Mir then this could potentially push him into the top 10 but would need a very disappointing performance from ether Roger or Barnett to be over took.
Obviously you are biased against the UFC. First off Arlovski didn't leave the UFC, he was let go. The idea I think you missed is the comparison to college football. Fedor's "strength of schedule" has fallen through the floor. Arlovski's been lost 3 times in a row since fighting Fedor. Silva isn't very good at all.

Now let's talk about your ludicrous, strikeforce biased rankings.

1. Velasquez-at least you got 1 right
2. Overeem- beating Rogers puts you at #2. That's just idiotic. The guy hasn't beaten a good HW yet, and you have him second.
3. JDS-should be #2
4. Werdum-the article is right his stock drops after last night. Besides beating Fedor and Silva what has he done?
5. Bigfoot-This is just too stupid to talk about. Maybe he's #10, maybe.
6. Fedor has lost 2 in a row doesn't deserve to be this high.
7. Lesnar-he loses to #1 so he drops to 7. Fedor loses to your 4 and 5 and only drops to 6. Lesnar should be in the top 3.
8. Carwin-If it wasn't for the steroid controversy I would say he's top 5, but due to steroids I agree he needs to be lower.
9. Barnett- I honestly don't understand the fascination with Barnett. He's a life long juicer who really hasn't beaten anyone good legally. 2006 was his last win over a top fighter.
10. Rogers is absolutely terrible. Mir should be higher than Barnett for sure. Look at their records side by side and who they've beaten.
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:19 PM   #14 (permalink)
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1. Velasquez-at least you got 1 right
2. Overeem- beating Rogers puts you at #2. That's just idiotic. The guy hasn't beaten a good HW yet, and you have him second.
3. JDS-should be #2
4. Werdum-the article is right his stock drops after last night. Besides beating Fedor and Silva what has he done?
5. Bigfoot-This is just too stupid to talk about. Maybe he's #10, maybe.
6. Fedor has lost 2 in a row doesn't deserve to be this high.
7. Lesnar-he loses to #1 so he drops to 7. Fedor loses to your 4 and 5 and only drops to 6. Lesnar should be in the top 3.
8. Carwin-If it wasn't for the steroid controversy I would say he's top 5, but due to steroids I agree he needs to be lower.
9. Barnett- I honestly don't understand the fascination with Barnett. He's a life long juicer who really hasn't beaten anyone good legally. 2006 was his last win over a top fighter.
10. Rogers is absolutely terrible. Mir should be higher than Barnett for sure. Look at their records side by side and who they've beaten.
Alright I usually take the UFC side of this argument. But who would you put top 10 if you take a couple of these guys out?

I sort of give Overeem a pass just on potential and his striking accomplishments. I would go JDS #2 and Overeem #3 because of what they have done.

WTF are you talking about what has Werdum done? He has several top 10 wins under his belt. And plenty of good wins. More than Lesnar, Carwin, Overeem put together.

After that Lesnar at #3? ARe you kidding? He is 5-2. Very easily could be 4-3 if Carwin didn't gas like he is a TUF HW. Lesnar met his match wrestling with Carwin and Cain. Other than that he used his size to beat Mir, Herring and Randy. Good fighters, but his last 2 fights prove he isn't top 3. He could still beat a lot of guys who can't stop his TD, but as far as what he has shown and done, no way he is top 3...no way.

Barnett is weird for me, not sure where to put him. Beating Rizzo and Monson over the last couple years is more than a lot of these guys have done. I don't like that he is a life long juicer who keeps getting 2nd and 3rd chances. Credibility goes down with so many times being caught.

Agree that Rogers doesn't deserve top 10. 1 good win in an entire career and almost losing to a legit can the last time out puts you far out of my top 10.
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:37 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Obviously you are biased against the UFC. First off Arlovski didn't leave the UFC, he was let go. The idea I think you missed is the comparison to college football. Fedor's "strength of schedule" has fallen through the floor. Arlovski's been lost 3 times in a row since fighting Fedor. Silva isn't very good at all.

Now let's talk about your ludicrous, strikeforce biased rankings.

1. Velasquez-at least you got 1 right
2. Overeem- beating Rogers puts you at #2. That's just idiotic. The guy hasn't beaten a good HW yet, and you have him second.
3. JDS-should be #2
4. Werdum-the article is right his stock drops after last night. Besides beating Fedor and Silva what has he done?
5. Bigfoot-This is just too stupid to talk about. Maybe he's #10, maybe.
6. Fedor has lost 2 in a row doesn't deserve to be this high.
7. Lesnar-he loses to #1 so he drops to 7. Fedor loses to your 4 and 5 and only drops to 6. Lesnar should be in the top 3.
8. Carwin-If it wasn't for the steroid controversy I would say he's top 5, but due to steroids I agree he needs to be lower.
9. Barnett- I honestly don't understand the fascination with Barnett. He's a life long juicer who really hasn't beaten anyone good legally. 2006 was his last win over a top fighter.
10. Rogers is absolutely terrible. Mir should be higher than Barnett for sure. Look at their records side by side and who they've beaten.
Well thats the way a UFC nut hugger would see it I guess, but then what do UFC nut huggers know about MMA.

1. OK we agree on No.1 should Overeem prove dominant over Werdum and Bigfoot we may soon not agree becasue he coudl be No.1 very soon.

2. Overeem has done a lot more than just beat Rogers, he has literary destroyed every opponent who has stepped into the ring or cage against him since he turned in the the Hulk, some may argue the fact he is K-1 champ does not count to his MMA ranking, but he is an experienced and recognized, at least recognized to anyone who is not a DW worshiping UFC hugger as an MMA fighter who is also K-1 champ, and stand up does play a huge part in the HW division more so than any other division, I think the Reem talent wise is No.1 and soon he will show the world what an good MMA fighter with that level of striking do.

3. JDS would get KTFO against the Reem, at least thats would be my prediction.

4. 2xADCC World Submission Wrestling Championship 2007 & 2009 so recent, respectable UFC record loosing to one of the top 2, still possible No.1 HW in the UFC, and Fedor and Silva are big tests for any fighter.

5. All ready wrote a huge part comparing Silva to Brock in this topic, make what you will but the facts stand he is proving to be a real top fighter.

6. Its hard to be so high for so long and drop out the top 10 after a couple of losses to very talented opponents, if GSP was to lose his next 2 fights to say Shields then Condit just as an example, would you then drop him lower than No.6 in a list of No.1 WW's?

7. Lesnar was never No.1 he was lucky to break the top 5 at one point with his comeback over Carwin, I would not back him in a rematch with Carwin, take away all the UFC hype which is what I do to make this list and you are left with a man who has proved very little in MMA, with a very limited skill set, his athletic ability for a man of his size is what gets him into the top 10, but he is miles off No.1 and always was.

8. Don't you mean if you take away all the non-UFC fighters then you would make him top 5?

9. He has a great record and again you are just judging good opponents as been UFC opponents in your statement, yet you think I am the one who is biased here.

10. Rogers has proved dangerous to many opponents, he is as dangerous as Carwin in many ways so there for should not be that far behind him, you say he is terrible with nothign to back up your statement what so ever, oh I forgot he is terrible because he is not in the UFC thats right thats how you see things, well while you where saying that he kept winning and putting on good performances, Ok he was smashed by the Reem, but its hard to see anyone the Reem would not smash right now outside the top 10 list to replace him.

And just because a list is not biased towards the UFC, it does not make it prejudice against them, all I did was take away the UFC hype behind all the fighters and judge them on there records and abilities that we have seen, and I judged UFC and NON-UFC fighters alike and this was the resulst, if UFC huggers are going to judge that as prejudice against them then fine it does not chance the truth and like I said before what do UFC nut huggers now about MMA aside from what DW tells them, remember when you though Brock was unbeatable not long back because DW told you that bullsh1t, did you not learn anything from that.
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Old 02-14-2011, 02:51 PM   #16 (permalink)
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10. Rogers has proved dangerous to many opponents, he is as dangerous as Carwin in many ways so there for should not be that far behind him, you say he is terrible with nothign to back up your statement what so ever, oh I forgot he is terrible because he is not in the UFC thats right thats how you see things, well while you where saying that he kept winning and putting on good performances, Ok he was smashed by the Reem, but its hard to see anyone the Reem would not smash right now outside the top 10 list to replace him.
You make a pretty good list.

But can you go into detail as to why Rogers gets top 10 mention? Perhaps talk about his best wins of his career. Maybe go into detail about his last fight.

No one is bashing him because he lost to Fedor and Overeem. People don't put him top 10 because he literally has 1 good win in his life...and Arlovski hasn't been the same in years. He also almost lost to a guy with a below .500 record.

He is comparable to Carwin. But Carwin has beat more than 1 credible guy. Also Carwin has a much better wrestling base, and proved it by stopping Lesnar's TDs. His gas tank is another story, but he has more skills than Rogers and more than 1 good win.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:18 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Well thats the way a UFC nut hugger would see it I guess, but then what do UFC nut huggers know about MMA.

1. OK we agree on No.1 should Overeem prove dominant over Werdum and Bigfoot we may soon not agree becasue he coudl be No.1 very soon.

2. Overeem has done a lot more than just beat Rogers, he has literary destroyed every opponent who has stepped into the ring or cage against him since he turned in the the Hulk, some may argue the fact he is K-1 champ doe snot count to his MMA ranking, be he is a experienced and recognized, at least recognized to anyone who is not a DW worshiping UFC hugger as an MMA fighter who is also K-1 champ, and stand up does play a huge part in the HW division more so than any other division, I think the Reem talent wise is No.1 and soon he will show the world what an good MMA fighter with that level of striking do.

3. JDS would get KTFO against the Reem, at least thats would be my prediction.

4. 2xADCC World Submission Wrestling Championship 2007 & 2009 so recent, respectable UFC record loosing to one of the top 2, still possible No.1 HW in the UFC, and Fedor and Silva are big tests for any fighter.

5. All ready wrote a huge part comparing Silva to Brock in this topic, make what you will but the facts stand he is proving to be a real top fighter.

6. Its hard to be so high for so long and drop out the top 10 after a couple of losses to very talented opponents, if GSP was to lose his next 2 fights to say Shields then Condit just as an example, would you then drop him lower than No.6 in a list of No.1 WW's?

7. Lesnar was never No.1 he was lucky to break the top 5 at one point with his comeback over Carwin, I would not back him in a rematch with Carwin, take away all the UFC hype which is what I do to make this list and you are left with a man who has proved very little in MMA, with a very limited skill set, his athletic ability for a man of his size is what gets him into the top 10, but he is miles off No.1 and always was.

8. Don't you mean if you take away all the non-UFC fighters then you would make him top 5?

9. He has a great record and again you are just judging good opponents as been UFC opponents in your statement, yet you think I am the one who is biased here.

10. Rogers has proved dangerous to many opponents, he is as dangerous as Carwin in many ways so there for should not be that far behind him, you say he is terrible with nothign to back up your statement what so ever, oh I forgot he is terrible because he is not in the UFC thats right thats how you see things, well while you where saying that he kept winning and putting on good performances, Ok he was smashed by the Reem, but its hard to see anyone the Reem would not smash right now outside the top 10 list to replace him.
2. This is mma not K-1. Do we rank Brock higher for his real wrestling pedigree. No that is just an aspect of mma, just like kickboxing. While we are at let's rate Herschell Walker high, he was dominant in football. Talent doesn't make ranking wins do. Overeem had an average LHW career and hasn't beaten anyone good at HW. What he has done in another sport is irrelevant.

3. I think JDS win's that fight but that's opinion. What isn't an opinion is record, and the fact that he knocked out your #4.
4. Again this is mma. Damian Maia is ranked any higher for what he has done outside mma, neither is Werdum. A respectable UFC record 2-2. Ko'd but JDS, and all his other fights were against guys who have been cut from the UFC. A win over Fedor doesn't mean as much as it used to, and Silva just isn't that goodt.
5. Silva's only win over a credible top 10 fighter was last night. He hasn't proven himself. Potential doesn't make rankings. Rankings are based on achievements.
6. First off I don't think Fedor should have been #1. I don't think that anyone could argue GSP isn't #1. Secondly it would be hard to drop GSP that far because he's beaten all the other guys below him. Think of 5 top 10 WW that GSP hasn't beaten. Fedor hasn't that's the difference.
7. Lesnar was the consensus #1 by every ranking system out there when he fought Velasquez. I would back him in a rematch against Carwin. I think Lesnar could beat him again. Which he did. Did it matter in your rankings that Rogers won the first round against Fedor, or that Big Nog has been losing in almost every fight before he wins? Of course not a win is a win. Lesnar also has wins over ranked opponents Carwin and Mir, and since I guess we're counting undeserved rankings Couture.
8. No he beat Mir who at the time was ranked very high. I can agree that an argument can be made that he should be 6 or 7.
9. Let's see who Barnett has beat that's ranked in the top 10: Over four years ago he won a split decision against Big Nog that was later avenged by Nog. That's it. Yes he's beaten Rizzo after that meant anything and descent but not great fighters like Monson, Hunt, and Aleks. He has lost to CroCop 3 times, Nog, and Rizzo. Also we don't know if he can win in the US, where there is steroid testing. He has beaten Rizzo and Yvel, other than that the last time he won a fight in the US without roids is Bobby Hoffman in 2001.
10. Rogers is not even closet to being as dangerous as Carwin. Carwin has more power and really good wrestling. Rogers threw one good right hand once against Arlovksi. His boxing is sloppy. He has no other abilities. He has no wins over top tier opponents. If you need a fighter to put here that's not in the UFC put Karitonov here instead. Rogers is a can plain and simple.

I think it's interesting that the only way you think someone can think UFC fighters should be ranked highly is by hype or being a hugger. Right there you show your bias. If you go on recent records, which is what rankings are based on then you couldn't rank your list that way.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:23 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Agreed that I would rank Sergei higher than Rogers. By a good margin too. I mean Sergei just matched Roger's lone career highlight by KOing AA in the 1st round. Then he has many more credible wins than Rogers...who basically has no more quality wins.

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Old 02-14-2011, 03:35 PM   #19 (permalink)
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You make a pretty good list.

But can you go into detail as to why Rogers gets top 10 mention? Perhaps talk about his best wins of his career. Maybe go into detail about his last fight.

No one is bashing him because he lost to Fedor and Overeem. People don't put him top 10 because he literally has 1 good win in his life...and Arlovski hasn't been the same in years. He also almost lost to a guy with a below .500 record.

He is comparable to Carwin. But Carwin has beat more than 1 credible guy. Also Carwin has a much better wrestling base, and proved it by stopping Lesnar's TDs. His gas tank is another story, but he has more skills than Rogers and more than 1 good win.
To be fair Rogers is on the ropes in this list anyway, if I had to make a prediction right now I would say he loses to Barnett and Mir beats Nelson and this argument is laid to rest anyway, but when you start out your career finishing every opponent you face so quickly, then you get signed by ether the UFC or SF and continue to carry on that habit you are going to rise fast.

If you want to compare Carwin to Rogers then it was going very close to there big deal signing, in term os recognized opponents Humphrey, Arlovski for Bret and Gonzaga, Mir for Carwin at this point the differences is not has huge as the hype of been in the UFC would have you believe, yet many are calling Carwin No.2 in the world leading to his title shot against Brock justify that how you will, but to call Rogers and Carwin a world part is just nothing but biased towards the UFC, Rogers goes and loses to Fedor not much shame there especially since he put on a good performance,

While Carwin beats Mir, this takes Carwin up above but leaves Rogers round the Mir Level considering current ranking of opponents at the time and putting them into perspective now, at this point Rogers was above Mir just on a knife edge having put a good perfrmace in against Fedor while Mir was smashed by Carwin, as stated jumping Carwin ahead as he still remains currently.

Mir since got the win against the fading out the ranking very quickly version of Cro Cop in what was also an unconvincing overall performance, while Rogers gets smashed by arguably the most dangerous HW of the top level, this is enough to turn the knifes edge back in Mir's favor, then like you say Rogers does come back with a win of his own against a lower level opponent, this is not enough to rise him up the ranks significantly but it does him no harm in the sense that he is not losing rank following a win, and brings thus brings him up to close to Mir to call.
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Old 02-14-2011, 03:41 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jonnyg4508 View Post
Agreed that I would rank Sergei higher than Rogers. By a good margin too. I mean Sergei just matched Roger's lone career highlight by KOing AA in the 1st round. Then he has many more credible wins than Rogers...who basically has no more quality wins.
You could be right about Sergei put him at 10 and then both Mir and Rogers are out, but Rogers and Mir are still that close in the rankings. I would have Sergei in the top 15 fir for and maybe I am under rating him at that, one more win from him and he is a stable top 10 without question.
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