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Old 06-21-2011, 11:59 AM   #11 (permalink)
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He wasn't giving Werdum too much respect he just had no interest in laying on top of Werdum playing it safe riding out a decision or fighting like an idiot on the ground and giving Werdum openings to sub him. He wanted to knock his head off and Werdum wisely had no intention of letting that happen but lamely refused to fight when he couldn't accomplish that objective by fighting.

Do people honestly think Anderson Silva is afraid to go to the ground with Leites and Maia or that GSP is afraid to stand with Hardy and Fitch? No, they are choosing to force the fight to stay in an area where they have a gigantic advantage. Overeem is the same, if he was fighting Badr Hari in an MMA match he would just sling him to the ground and beat the shit out of him or sub him. Guys like this who can fight from any position and have the ability to decide that position are rare and no one who fights them has any right to complain about it. Become a better fighter or shut up don't act like a moron and demand that your opponent help you win the fight.

Overeem and Anderson have every right to mock floppers. If you can't get your opponent to the ground then you have to stand with him it is that simple. Whether or not you are a good striker is irrelevant this is MMA not a grappling match you can't decide not to participate in the striking if you can't take your opponent down.
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Old 06-21-2011, 12:21 PM   #12 (permalink)
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There's a lot of good points in this thread. I've re-watched the fight a few times after the live event... to get a better perspective and take the 'in the moment emotion out of it'.

This fight had a very similar outcome to the Leitas Silva fight. I said it before, Werdum is excellent on the ground, but I still think after the Fedor sub he's riding on this "i'm untouchable aura" on the ground.

The huge curve ball was Werdum flopping down not trying to trade with Overeem. His shots were heavily telegraphed as well.

I can't blame Overeem for this. It\s much, much harder to finish someone who is only on defense, not trying to win a fight.
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Old 06-21-2011, 12:43 PM   #13 (permalink)
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IMO there was one problem and one problem with that fight; Werdum butt flopped every single time Overeem hit him, completely robbing Overeem of any chance of putting together a decent combo. Werdum was diving like a soccer player in a bad footy match. Not saying Werdum can't pull guard, but to fake being damaged every time you get so much as grazed by a punch and flop to your ass is delaying the fight. It also makes the fight unwatchable. If this were a grappling match then Overeem would be wrong. But this is MMA. The default position is standing up.

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He wasn't giving Werdum too much respect he just had no interest in laying on top of Werdum playing it safe riding out a decision or fighting like an idiot on the ground and giving Werdum openings to sub him. He wanted to knock his head off and Werdum wisely had no intention of letting that happen but lamely refused to fight when he couldn't accomplish that objective by fighting.

Do people honestly think Anderson Silva is afraid to go to the ground with Leites and Maia or that GSP is afraid to stand with Hardy and Fitch? No, they are choosing to force the fight to stay in an area where they have a gigantic advantage. Overeem is the same, if he was fighting Badr Hari in an MMA match he would just sling him to the ground and beat the shit out of him or sub him. Guys like this who can fight from any position and have the ability to decide that position are rare and no one who fights them has any right to complain about it. Become a better fighter or shut up don't act like a moron and demand that your opponent help you win the fight.

Overeem and Anderson have every right to mock floppers. If you can't get your opponent to the ground then you have to stand with him it is that simple. Whether or not you are a good striker is irrelevant this is MMA not a grappling match you can't decide not to participate in the striking if you can't take your opponent down.

totally agree. Nice post.


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tldr, go back to your overeem roidhead bed covers.

The guy is an overrated joke who has never beaten anyone of consequence in MMA and has zero heart. Never has.

People love his roid body and can crushing, but he would get killed in the UFC top ranks. I've been saying for a while that he would get exposed the moment he faced anything near top 10, and Werdum was barely near that because he beat a declining Fedor, but he still proved the point. K1 =/= MMA.
Wow. You don't read the guys post and then go on a pointless rant that may or may not have anything to do with what the OP said.

Probably the most immature post you can make on a forum. At least trolls have a purpose. I don't neg rep often, but this totally deserves it. Unproductive post that actually detracts from the discussion rather than adds to it.
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:01 PM   #14 (permalink)
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He wasn't giving Werdum too much respect he just had no interest in laying on top of Werdum playing it safe riding out a decision or fighting like an idiot on the ground and giving Werdum openings to sub him. He wanted to knock his head off and Werdum wisely had no intention of letting that happen but lamely refused to fight when he couldn't accomplish that objective by fighting.

Do people honestly think Anderson Silva is afraid to go to the ground with Leites and Maia or that GSP is afraid to stand with Hardy and Fitch? No, they are choosing to force the fight to stay in an area where they have a gigantic advantage. Overeem is the same, if he was fighting Badr Hari in an MMA match he would just sling him to the ground and beat the shit out of him or sub him. Guys like this who can fight from any position and have the ability to decide that position are rare and no one who fights them has any right to complain about it. Become a better fighter or shut up don't act like a moron and demand that your opponent help you win the fight.

Overeem and Anderson have every right to mock floppers. If you can't get your opponent to the ground then you have to stand with him it is that simple. Whether or not you are a good striker is irrelevant this is MMA not a grappling match you can't decide not to participate in the striking if you can't take your opponent down.
Thats all very well wanting to avoid creating that position, but non of the fighters you listed would pass on the opportunities the Reem was given to try something on the ground, sure they may get up eventually if it started to get a little hot down there or to pull away from a close submission attempt, guess its all about timing in that respect, but they would first look to pass guard or do some damage before just standing up and inviting them to stand.

I am not saying he should of jumped into Werdums guard but once he was there he should of tried to pass or do some GnP before getting up miles before Werdum was even close to trying a submission.

At the end of the day the Reem has an aggressive top game especially from side control, like with Rogers and so many of his opponents when he starts to ram those knees in there rips or starts lacing in with some big hooks. I feel if he had looked to pass with his strength and got side control then risk of submission would of been minimal and Werdum might of started to think twice about giving him top control if he started to eat some of those knees bouncing off his rip cage. Maybe then next time he would not be so willing to give up top position if he was hurt on one of those occasions, but since the Reem was not even willing to try and take advantage there was virtually no risk in him pulling guard when the worse that could happen was him not getting the sub and been told to stand back up again.

Hell there is even one occasion I recall where he had perfect position to take Werdums back after a little scramble, but even then he backed off and let him get away back to his feet, sorry but at the end of the day this is MMA not K-1, if your not willing to use all your MMA skills and the tools of the sport when the chance is there and instead want to just stand and strike with your opponent then you belong in the Ring not the Octagon.
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Old 06-21-2011, 01:24 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Yes Werdum made it awkward and fought in a cowardly manner, but he actually landed more strikes than Reem and IMO a striker of Reem's supposed caliber had plenty of chances to hurt Werdum.

If Werdum didn't attack at all and literally just flopped, then yes put all the blame on him. Fact is, Werdum attacked more often on the feet and Reem couldn't take advantage of it/was hesitant, which is really bad considering how hyped his 'K-1 striking' was, so they are both to blame.

Werdum had a cowardly gameplan but at least he attacked, and Reem didn't attack enough and didn't stamp any authority on the match when he had chances.
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Old 06-21-2011, 02:27 PM   #16 (permalink)
 
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What went wrong is Werdum was convinced he needed to take it to the ground to win and Overeem was convinced as long as he kept it standing he would win. So Werdum kept trying TD's and Overeem kept defending and not doing much else.
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Old 06-21-2011, 02:39 PM   #17 (permalink)
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What went wrong is Werdum was convinced he needed to take it to the ground to win and Overeem was convinced as long as he kept it standing he would win. So Werdum kept trying TD's and Overeem kept defending and not doing much else.
And that is fine, I have no problem with fighters being smart and avoiding the other guys area of strength. However, people keep comparing this to Leites-Silva. There are some similarities but here is the big difference. Leites didn't land hardly anything standing. When it was standing Silva still outstruck Leites easily. Overeem did not do that to Werdum. Was Overeem more effective because his strikes did more damage? Yeah, probably I'm not saying Werdum won the fight but Werdum didn't just barely land more than Overeem, he landed quite a bit more in the first and third.

Was Overeem worried about takedowns? I'm sure he was. Was Werdum flopping making it hard to get combinations? Yes, I'm sure it was. Still doesn't change the fact that he didn't easily outclass Werdum standing where Silva in the same situation against Leites did.
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:15 PM   #18 (permalink)
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And that is fine, I have no problem with fighters being smart and avoiding the other guys area of strength. However, people keep comparing this to Leites-Silva. There are some similarities but here is the big difference. Leites didn't land hardly anything standing. When it was standing Silva still outstruck Leites easily. Overeem did not do that to Werdum. Was Overeem more effective because his strikes did more damage? Yeah, probably I'm not saying Werdum won the fight but Werdum didn't just barely land more than Overeem, he landed quite a bit more in the first and third.

Was Overeem worried about takedowns? I'm sure he was. Was Werdum flopping making it hard to get combinations? Yes, I'm sure it was. Still doesn't change the fact that he didn't easily outclass Werdum standing where Silva in the same situation against Leites did.
The reason I compared the Leites fight was that Werdum kept wanting to go to the ground and stalling.

I do, however, give credit to Werdum for his improvement in striking. He didn't land really any power shots, but he kept Overeem guessing with takedowns. The problem was he wasn't fighting to win, he was there praying it went to the ground and that is very hard for any fighter to fight against.
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Old 06-21-2011, 03:46 PM   #19 (permalink)
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nuff said
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Old 06-21-2011, 04:16 PM   #20 (permalink)
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nuff said
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