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General MMA Discussion Discuss King Of The Cage, Ultimate Challenge UK, and HDNet Fights as well as general mixed martial arts discussion.

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Old 09-03-2011, 07:22 AM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Intermission View Post
I AM saying LnP is justified. Wresting is a martial art just as much as BJJ or Muay Thai, should we take those out of MMA?

Its called MMA for a reason, learn to sweep from the botton or to stop a take down or stop fighting.
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What's your point? that's pure wrestling, this is MMA. You need to adapt to your situation.
So you think that LnP is wrestling and that since its a part of wrestling that it deserves to be allowed in the UFC??
But then you turn around and say that those are "pure" wrestling rules and this is MMA??
Isnt that a bit contradictory? LNP is NOT wrestling, just as much running away from your opponent is not strking, or hugging against the fence is not clinch work.
Wrestling is a mixed martial arts and SHOULD be allowed in every sense of the word but LnP is not a part of it. In a wrestling match you are NOT allowed to take someone down and stall, so why in MMA where you are actually allowed to punch,sub,knee,transition,slam,etc, is LnP so common and okay?? In wrestling you cant do any of those things and wrestlers still find ways to be extremely active. I think LnP does need to be looked at more carefully because its getting common and its ruining the sport of MMA. At the very least fighters need to do what Chael did in order to stop from being stood back up. Chael wasnt doing alot of damage with every punch BUT he was being active and allowed himself to give room for Andy to sweep him or roll or any other thing you can do to get back up. Fighters instead take someone down and throw a punch every 10 seconds and the other times are playing handsy. Its pretty hard to sweep someone if he just plans on holding you in the same position. These guys are usually the same size and close skill level. The way you sweep someone is by tricking them or taking advantage of a slip up. But when you dont do anything BUT hold on to the guy then your not giving any opportunity for the guy to trick you or for him to capitalize on something. Sure it will lead to you getting the victory but it will lead to the sport of MMA being a holding contest and many unsatisfied and angry fans. Simply put.. it ruins the sport of MMA. Being stricter on LnP does not mean getting rid of the art of wrestling.
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:48 AM   #22 (permalink)
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That is what I'm trying to say. I'm a wrestler and I am telling you that lay and pray is not a legitimate part of pure wrestling. In pure wrestling you either pin the guy or you take him down and work towards putting him on his back, you just sit on top of the guy then that is stalling and you either get penalized or they stand you up just like in MMA.
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Old 09-03-2011, 08:57 AM   #23 (permalink)
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Laying on someone is fighting is it? No

Is striking fighting? Yes

Is BJJ fighting? Yes

Laying on someone will never ever result in a finish without striking or submissions, so don't lay there not doing anything, that's not a fight that's a game of control.

His argument is utter bullshit.
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Old 09-03-2011, 09:14 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Yeah, I agree with you and I'm a wrestler. Wrestling in it's pure form is a rough sport and never involves lying on someone. The best wrestlers use it their advantage and adapt with submissions and striking.
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:25 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Laying on someone is fighting is it? No

Is striking fighting? Yes

Is BJJ fighting? Yes

Laying on someone will never ever result in a finish without striking or submissions, so don't lay there not doing anything, that's not a fight that's a game of control.

His argument is utter bullshit.
controlling someone for 15 mins is more convincing than getting a guillotine or flash KO.


Finishing fights has nothing to do with it you dont finish fights with rubber guard you use it to gain control for other things to finish the fight like wrestling.
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:54 AM   #26 (permalink)
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Yeah, but things like that show a person can actually finish a fight. Leaving it to the judges doesn't always guarentee victory. If someone is a finisher they will win more then likely.
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Old 09-04-2011, 01:38 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sambo de Amigo View Post
controlling someone for 15 mins is more convincing than getting a guillotine or flash KO.


Finishing fights has nothing to do with it you dont finish fights with rubber guard you use it to gain control for other things to finish the fight like wrestling.
Controlling someone like Chael Sonnen does is very impressive. Controlling someone by just holding them is anything but..
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Old 09-04-2011, 02:23 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Yeah, a good wrestler is Chael Sonnen who controls and pounds opponents. That is a good wrestler who tries to finish an opponent. There were times that he got close to finishing Silva.
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:43 AM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by kantowrestler View Post
Yeah, a good wrestler is Chael Sonnen who controls and pounds opponents. That is a good wrestler who tries to finish an opponent. There were times that he got close to finishing Silva.
Basically the reason i dont mind Chael is because he is constantly working. You know how much easier it would be for Chael if he just held on and threw a punch every 10 seconds?? There would be absolutely no way to get him off you. When you are constantly throwing punches then you leave openings for opponents to sweep or reverse or even pull a submission like a triangle off. Sure if Chael fought like Fitch or GSP then he probably would have walked away as the champion. But Chael and everyone else knows that MMA is a fighting sport, you HAVE to fight. If you dont do that then dont complain when you have zero fans. Why should people pay to watch someone when all they do is hug their opponents to a decision?? Sure the fighter gets the win so he is happy. But the crowd doesn't get anything except boredom, disappointment, angry, ETC. The sport loses its appeal and leaves room for comments such as "All they do is hug on the floor, ufc is boring". And sometimes no matter the amount of knowledge you have, you will be sitting there with your non mma fan friend and you will literally not have a single way to disagree with him. The best you will be able to say is "Yeah bro but this isnt normal this guy is just lame". And TBH i kind of DONT think that GSP fits in that LnP category. But when you know what GSP can do it pisses you off to watch him threading that line.

LnP is not wrestling. If anyone ever goes to a wrestling meet they would NEVER see the type of laying on opponent strategy that you see in MMA. Wrestling is very high speed normally i dont know where this rumor came from that LnP is wrestling. Comments like that are completely absurd. You dont call hugging someone a clinch do you?
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Old 09-04-2011, 06:21 AM   #30 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sambo de Amigo View Post
controlling someone for 15 mins is more convincing than getting a guillotine or flash KO.
Well, hugfest-blanketing control means "My opponent hopefully can't finish me as long as I lay on him"-control, while a finish is the ultimate control over your opponent like "I could pull down his pants and play 'hide the Tabasco bottle' or do whatever I want to him"-control.

If it weren't for the rules that stop a fight after a finish, a fighter could decide after a finish to do just the same LnP on his opponent, so LnP is included in a finish while the other way around a finish is not strictly included in LnP. Or mathematically speaking LnP (A) is just a subset of a finish (B):


That makes: finish > LnP
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