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Old 09-04-2011, 06:39 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
Well, hugfest-blanketing control means "My opponent hopefully can't finish me as long as I lay on him"-control, while a finish is the ultimate control over your opponent like "I could pull down his pants and play 'hide the Tabasco bottle' or do whatever I want to him"-control.

If it weren't for the rules that stop a fight after a finish, a fighter could decide after a finish to do just the same LnP on his opponent, so LnP is included in a finish while the other way around a finish is not strictly included in LnP. Or mathematically speaking LnP (A) is just a subset of a finish (B):


That makes: finish > LnP
Well LnP is certainly worse then a finish. But its also worse then dominating a opponent and having your way with him. To me LnP means that you really cant hang with this guy so you have to lay on him and pray the fight finishes, since you certainly wont be finishing it...

Btw
The overlapping concept is a pretty stupid thing to say when talking about this subject. A for effort and thinking outside the box though. lol
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Old 09-04-2011, 12:53 PM   #32 (permalink)
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It's been mentioned before that the full guard position in BJJ should count as much as a wrestler on top not doing any damage.

Now, IMO I think a BJJ fighter pulling guard should count as much as a wrestler getting a takedown. Hypothetically, if nothing happens after this, I say the BJJ fighter who pulled guard should win the round. Obviously, the fight would be stood up well before the round ended which leads to the next scoring sequence.

I say GnP should count as much as submission attempts. How much GnP to equal one submission attempt would be determined in the eyes of the judges.

Additional points would be awarded from the fighter on top who is able to pass the guard and additional points will also be awarded to the fighter on the bottom who is able to land effective strikes off of his back.

Perhaps a successful sweep from the bottom could count as much as a takedown as well.

Now with all of this being said, I think a defended takedown should also be awarded points. Definitely not as much as a successful takedown but perhaps 1/2 or 1/3 the value. Some say this shouldn't be installed because the fighter going for the takedowns is the aggressor and should be awarded the points but I don't put takedown aggression in the same light as striking aggression. A striker who throws 10 punches that are all blocked should still be awarded points rather than his opponent who successfully defended the strikes. However, when a takedown is stuffed, I feel as if the fighter who stopped it seems the more dominant one in that situation because they were able to keep the fight where they wanted it.


^^^ This is the closest set of scoring rules I could come up with that would make everything more fair for the non wrestler and also leave them with no more excuses.

This is also coming from a guy who wrestled all his life

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Old 09-04-2011, 01:55 PM   #33 (permalink)
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The takedown definitely should count for something. Its an extremely demanding physical motion, it takes all kinds of different muscles and nerves firing just the right way, at just the right intensly.

But top control is what is overrated. The guard position (on the top or the bottom) should not be considered dominant. What one does in the guard is what matters. The difference would be Jones vs Guida. The guard itself, which is where most grinders win, should be considered a neutral. EFFECTIVE STRIKING in the guard should gain points, as well as any position, side control, half guard, etc, should gain favor with the judges.

TDD isn't the problem. Overrating the guard is the problem with grappling in MMA.
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Old 09-04-2011, 04:00 PM   #34 (permalink)
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Well unless the guy has no takedown defense or the takedown just happens by accident. But when done right yeah it's intense. Though I don't agree that top control is overrated.
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Old 09-04-2011, 04:32 PM   #35 (permalink)
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Stuffing takedowns is as underrated as being in a closed guard on top is overrated.
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Old 09-04-2011, 04:42 PM   #36 (permalink)
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This sport is mixed martial arts, if someone wants to take you down and control you for the whole fight while laying on top of you, you should learn to prevent the takedown and learn to stand back up.

With that said, if you do fight like this, expect to lose fans, and like Fitch, not get your title shot. This is a sport, this is not "fighting". We call it fighting, but it's not "fighting". It's a sport, and in a sport, you have fans, and these fans need to be entertained in order to keep the sport alive.

Take someone down and hold them for the duration of the fight, just don't expect to get your title shot anytime soon or any sort of solid fan base.

A boring fighter is a boring fighter, no one wants that as a champion, let's be real here.
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Old 09-04-2011, 04:54 PM   #37 (permalink)
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Stuffing takedowns is as underrated as being in a closed guard on top is overrated.
Seconded.
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:32 PM   #38 (permalink)
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Yeah, I third that. In order to stuff a takedown from an elite wrestler it takes quite a bit. That isn't an easy thing to do.
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:34 PM   #39 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by M.C View Post
This sport is mixed martial arts, if someone wants to take you down and control you for the whole fight while laying on top of you, you should learn to prevent the takedown and learn to stand back up.

With that said, if you do fight like this, expect to lose fans, and like Fitch, not get your title shot. This is a sport, this is not "fighting". We call it fighting, but it's not "fighting". It's a sport, and in a sport, you have fans, and these fans need to be entertained in order to keep the sport alive.

Take someone down and hold them for the duration of the fight, just don't expect to get your title shot anytime soon or any sort of solid fan base.

A boring fighter is a boring fighter, no one wants that as a champion, let's be real here.
With that being said, Chad Mendes looks like hes next in line for Aldo.
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Old 09-04-2011, 05:48 PM   #40 (permalink)
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What Fitch does isn't wrestling. The thing that Fitch does is being lazy. He should learn to try and finish a fight on the ground.
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