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The Guard & Real world aplication

3K views 36 replies 15 participants last post by  know_pain13 
#1 ·
I was just watching two fighters in a ground battle and wondered how practical the guard would be in a non referee situation. To me it looks wide open for head but strikes which could end the fight really quick. I would appreciate any feed back and opinions.
cheers
 
#2 · (Edited)
AdRath said:
I was just watching two fighters in a ground battle and wondered how practical the guard would be in a non referee situation. To me it looks wide open for head but strikes which could end the fight really quick. I would appreciate any feed back and opinions.
cheers
just watch ufc #1-5, they had no rules, back then, you could head butt, punch in the nuts, hair pull... after that you tell me how practical the guard is.
times have changed???? so has the guard, game to keep up with times,"rubber guard"

this is the time when there was no weight class,

YouTube - Royce Gracie
 
#3 ·
i also think that in a real world situtation there are lots of things you can do to minimize an opponents ability to to strike when in guard. clinching behind the head and pulling another person down is one way. you also have to think alot of people wont necessarily know what to do when they are in guard. sure they might have seen it before but that doesnt make them an expert. which i think would make it easier to perform submissions. granted in a real fight they wont submit so you will probally end up breaking something on them or making them pass out.
 
#4 ·
The guard is practical for a streetfight, but only if you know how to use it. If you don't then your just on your back.

If your opponent decides to headbutt you, he opens himself up to strikes to the ribs, as well as the chance to possibly pass under his arms, take his back and get the RNC. More importantly, though, it gives you the power to control his hips and if he reels back then you can just move his hips and keep him from getting any power or hitting you at all.

Then there's the triangle, the armbar and the omoplata. The work, too.
 
#5 ·
Possible tactics to look out for when utilizing the guard in a streetfight are:

Strikes to the groin. It's the closest thing to your opponent. Pull down on his head to minimize distance, and he can grab a hand full of your package. Owww!

Headbutts Even if you lock in a sub, or strike to his ribs. You'll be hurting when it's over.

Eye Gouges I don't care how tough, muscular, or in shape you are. There is no muscle or fat to protect the eyes. And if you can't see, you're screwed.

Throat Strikes See Eye Gouges and substitute Throat for Eyes and Breathe for See.
 
#6 ·
NEVER I dont care who tells you closed gaurd is okay for the street. ITS NOT.


1-Shots to the genitals.
2-If the guy is some what strong he will lift you up and slam you.
3-You expose you WHOLE body except youre back.

Closed gaurd is the dumbest thing you can do for the street. I suggest spider gaurd, street gaurd and maybe rubber gaurd. The best possible ground move is umoplata. He cant move but you can break his shoulder or choke him out.

Also, watch out for triangles, as mention by IronMan, But i disagree, i think triangles arent very good, if he is crazy he might bite youre genitals.
 
#8 ·
BJJ Boy said:
NEVER I dont care who tells you closed gaurd is okay for the street. ITS NOT.


1-Shots to the genitals.
2-If the guy is some what strong he will lift you up and slam you.
3-You expose you WHOLE body except youre back.

Closed gaurd is the dumbest thing you can do for the street. I suggest spider gaurd, street gaurd and maybe rubber gaurd. The best possible ground move is umoplata. He cant move but you can break his shoulder or choke him out.

Also, watch out for triangles, as mention by IronMan, But i disagree, i think triangles arent very good, if he is crazy he might bite youre genitals.
Interesting take, but these are all things that a competent and experienced fighter knows how to handle.

1- Strikes to the groin.

Control the hand, control the hands, control the hands. Any kind of grappling that you do, this is the first thing that you learn. Don't give him his punchy things and his elbow-y things, he won't hit you in the groin with them.

2- Lifting the body.

You are using your hips to keep him from getting that classic jerk-lift form. You just sweep his body so that he can't get his legs under his body. If he is already standing, then what you should be doing is looking for a leg and trying to bring him into closed guard. There's a reason they teach it that way.

You can also grab hold of a leg when he's trying to lift you and, if you have even a moderate level of strength, you can pull this leg out and, if you know some leglocks, throw and achilles lock on or swing your legs and roll into a kneebar.

3- Exposing the front of your body.

I mentioned the part where you are holding his hands, right?

As for biting the groin in the triangle I really hope that you were kidding. First, his chin should keep him from doing that, because, if the choke is tight, the groin should actually be against his throat.

The point is simple, when you are in a position where you know how to control your opponent it's a good position for you. You just have to know how to work it. The full, closed guard is a solid control position.
 
#9 ·
IronMan said:
Interesting take, but these are all things that a competent and experienced fighter knows how to handle.

1- Strikes to the groin.

Control the hand, control the hands, control the hands. Any kind of grappling that you do, this is the first thing that you learn. Don't give him his punchy things and his elbow-y things, he won't hit you in the groin with them.

2- Lifting the body.

You are using your hips to keep him from getting that classic jerk-lift form. You just sweep his body so that he can't get his legs under his body. If he is already standing, then what you should be doing is looking for a leg and trying to bring him into closed guard. There's a reason they teach it that way.

You can also grab hold of a leg when he's trying to lift you and, if you have even a moderate level of strength, you can pull this leg out and, if you know some leglocks, throw and achilles lock on or swing your legs and roll into a kneebar.

3- Exposing the front of your body.

I mentioned the part where you are holding his hands, right?

As for biting the groin in the triangle I really hope that you were kidding. First, his chin should keep him from doing that, because, if the choke is tight, the groin should actually be against his throat.

The point is simple, when you are in a position where you know how to control your opponent it's a good position for you. You just have to know how to work it. The full, closed guard is a solid control position.


Agreed,if you control the hands it will decrease all of his strikes by 100%. But, thier are 2 things you must take into consideration,1) Like i mentioned, if he is powerful he will break youre grip, 2) If he is lucky, or if you make a mistake and he gets one shot in youre genitals or face, then thier will be a good chance youll be binded for a few seconds and he will take that advantage.
 
#10 ·
BJJ Boy said:
Agreed,if you control the hands it will decrease all of his strikes by 100%. But, thier are 2 things you must take into consideration,1) Like i mentioned, if he is powerful he will break youre grip, 2) If he is lucky, or if you make a mistake and he gets one shot in youre genitals or face, then thier will be a good chance youll be binded for a few seconds and he will take that advantage.
Watch any fighter with a solid grappling game and you'll see the perfect way to control the hands from guard. Keep them close to your chest, this increases your amount of control and decreases his, because you are using more of your torso and hips to control his hands, plus your arms, while all he can use to pull away is his arms and shoulders. If you let him get his back in with the jerk lift, then, yes, he will have that too, but that's why you use your legs and hips to control his connection between his lower body (balancing point) and upperbody (lifting portion) to keep him from getting a good position for that.

If he pulls away using the lower back, maintain control of one hand, swing your leg over and you have an armbar. It's a basic counter, and he will walk into it if he does a big pulling away motion or a big forward lung.

As for that whole being stunned from a shot: I think I've said this before, if you don't have a chin, don't get hit. That's why you control the hands (which control the elbows) in the first place.

I should say that there are ways to split the guard and break an opponent's grip, but if your opponent knows that, he's not going to make the mistake of getting submitted by a bad mistake on his part. You don't want to be on the ground with that guy in a street fight.

If anyone wants details on the guard splitting, I can throw that out there.
 
#12 ·
JawShattera said:
heres soem great street techniqeu's:

the eye guage

the groin strike

hair pulling

ear biting

testicle sqeezing

finger snapping

throat strikes

head bash from back mount


someof my favorite street fighting and self defence tecniqeu's

use them all
I've already mentioned taking away the hands, but you added biting and head butting. I've actually seen guys try to do this in a street fight before.

Ear biting is a pretty hard one to deal with, except, if he's in your guard you can just flatten out and distance his head from your head. It's pretty easy, just don't let him get close enough to do that.

Headbutting is the same.

From the guard you can control the arms and the head (for the most part) and keep them from doing any serious damage. Just because your on the bottom doesn't mean your f*cked.
 
#15 ·
IronMan said:
Watch any fighter with a solid grappling game and you'll see the perfect way to control the hands from guard. Keep them close to your chest, this increases your amount of control and decreases his, because you are using more of your torso and hips to control his hands, plus your arms, while all he can use to pull away is his arms and shoulders. If you let him get his back in with the jerk lift, then, yes, he will have that too, but that's why you use your legs and hips to control his connection between his lower body (balancing point) and upperbody (lifting portion) to keep him from getting a good position for that.

If he pulls away using the lower back, maintain control of one hand, swing your leg over and you have an armbar. It's a basic counter, and he will walk into it if he does a big pulling away motion or a big forward lung.

As for that whole being stunned from a shot: I think I've said this before, if you don't have a chin, don't get hit. That's why you control the hands (which control the elbows) in the first place.

I should say that there are ways to split the guard and break an opponent's grip, but if your opponent knows that, he's not going to make the mistake of getting submitted by a bad mistake on his part. You don't want to be on the ground with that guy in a street fight.

If anyone wants details on the guard splitting, I can throw that out there.

Yea, like i said, CLOSED gaurd is the worst thing you could possibly do. But if you do different grip it could be a totaly different move. For example, butter fly gaurd.

Also, yes you could swing into an arm bar, BUT IF HES POWER FULL HE WILL CRUSH YOU.



But like you said, if you have a good grip then its perfect for the street, but you never know what youre up against.
 
#16 ·
BJJ Boy said:
Yea, like i said, CLOSED gaurd is the worst thing you could possibly do. But if you do different grip it could be a totaly different move. For example, butter fly gaurd.

Also, yes you could swing into an arm bar, BUT IF HES POWER FULL HE WILL CRUSH YOU.



But like you said, if you have a good grip then its perfect for the street, but you never know what youre up against.
Did you read the post you quoted?

A full guard provides control of the back and the hips. So does a butterfly guard. They both do exactly the same thing but in different ways. Buttfly guard is way more risky than full guard and it lacks alot of the basic control of a full guard situation.

You call yourself BJJ Boy, so you should already know this. If you get a good armbar or triangle, he can't get his hips under to lift you. If you get a good armbar or triangle he can't just smash you with his shoulders because you are controlling what his body is doing with your legs. If you are a good ground fighter he will not crush you!

You're absolutely right you don't know what you're fighting on the street, but the closed guard is a control position. That means that, even though you are on the bottom, you are in a good position. If you're fighting Jeff Monson, you got yourself into that mess, but strength doesn't matter as much as ability.

Someone else mentioned stomping. This is another reason why the guard is a good position. If you get the guard on him, he is on top of you. This means that his body will protect your body from the direct force of the stomps. Your head is still out there, but that's a little more mobile than the rest of the body.

Someone else mentioned passing straight to a triangle or an armbar. That works too, but the question was "is the guard effective on the street?"
 
#17 ·
If a street fighter willlast about 45 seconds with a decent grappler. not onyl does he have a insane technical dis advantage but when your a good grapplerand you ahve this idiot who you dont have to worry about getting a sub on you or anything its very easy to just force a submission.
 
#18 ·
Eye Gouge

IronMan said:
Did you read the post you quoted?

A full guard provides control of the back and the hips. So does a butterfly guard. They both do exactly the same thing but in different ways. Buttfly guard is way more risky than full guard and it lacks alot of the basic control of a full guard situation.

You call yourself BJJ Boy, so you should already know this. If you get a good armbar or triangle, he can't get his hips under to lift you. If you get a good armbar or triangle he can't just smash you with his shoulders because you are controlling what his body is doing with your legs. If you are a good ground fighter he will not crush you!

You're absolutely right you don't know what you're fighting on the street, but the closed guard is a control position. That means that, even though you are on the bottom, you are in a good position. If you're fighting Jeff Monson, you got yourself into that mess, but strength doesn't matter as much as ability.

Someone else mentioned stomping. This is another reason why the guard is a good position. If you get the guard on him, he is on top of you. This means that his body will protect your body from the direct force of the stomps. Your head is still out there, but that's a little more mobile than the rest of the body.

Someone else mentioned passing straight to a triangle or an armbar. That works too, but the question was "is the guard effective on the street?"
You made many good points and strong arguments for the guard being effective in a street fight.

I'm curious as to your opinion on defending against simple finger strikes or gouges to the eyes and to the throat.
 
#19 ·
There are loads of arguments that point against using closed guard on the street:
1. Stuff on the ground: Guard may be fun to pull on your cushy dojo mats, or even a hardwood gym floor, but try that shit on a real street, with concrete, bumps, broken glass and garbage lying around, and everything looks a little different.
2. Buddies: Its pretty rare that criminals operate alone, and if they aren't and you pull guard, you just signed your own death sentence, and believe me it will NOT be quick and painless. If its a street fight due to bullying, or someone acting like a jackass, odds are, they still have some kind of buddy around to stomp on you. I almost never see people that would normally walk around in an agressive enough manner for you to get into a fight with them that don't have at least one buddy around.
3. Weapons: If the guy pulls a knife on you and you're on the ground, you're in a LOT more trouble than if you're standing. You have no real chance to get away now unless you defeat him in some manner (breaking something significant or choking him out). Someone attacking you with a knife while you're grappling with them will almost surely result in your death, (And then you'll never know if Chuck actually ever stood a chance against Fedor :D (I doubt it))

IMHO you want to keep any street fight standing up if possible. Of course you want to know how to grapple because: a) Its sooooo fun, b) Its useful in "schoolyard" type fights, and c) if you ever do end up on the ground you at least want to know what to do.
Punching, kicking, and Throws are your friend on the street. (Especially throws for that matter, try a real seio-nage on someone on asphalt, and around 90% of the time, they will be knocked the **** out or so winded and injured they wont do shit all anymore for the next three weeks!)
 
#20 ·
-Lukas- said:
There are loads of arguments that point against using closed guard on the street:
1. Stuff on the ground: Guard may be fun to pull on your cushy dojo mats, or even a hardwood gym floor, but try that shit on a real street, with concrete, bumps, broken glass and garbage lying around, and everything looks a little different.
2. Buddies: Its pretty rare that criminals operate alone, and if they aren't and you pull guard, you just signed your own death sentence, and believe me it will NOT be quick and painless. If its a street fight due to bullying, or someone acting like a jackass, odds are, they still have some kind of buddy around to stomp on you. I almost never see people that would normally walk around in an agressive enough manner for you to get into a fight with them that don't have at least one buddy around.
3. Weapons: If the guy pulls a knife on you and you're on the ground, you're in a LOT more trouble than if you're standing. You have no real chance to get away now unless you defeat him in some manner (breaking something significant or choking him out). Someone attacking you with a knife while you're grappling with them will almost surely result in your death, (And then you'll never know if Chuck actually ever stood a chance against Fedor :D (I doubt it))

IMHO you want to keep any street fight standing up if possible. Of course you want to know how to grapple because: a) Its sooooo fun, b) Its useful in "schoolyard" type fights, and c) if you ever do end up on the ground you at least want to know what to do.
Punching, kicking, and Throws are your friend on the street. (Especially throws for that matter, try a real seio-nage on someone on asphalt, and around 90% of the time, they will be knocked the **** out or so winded and injured they wont do shit all anymore for the next three weeks!)
I agree with everything you have said. There seems to be a lot of ring assumptions that you don't see in the real world. In my opinion the guard puts you in a vulnerable position in a street fight situation. 1 on 1 sure it is very effective cause it is all based on tying up and controlling for submission or defending 1 attacker. There are so many variables in a street fight that being on your toes with the ability to move and run makes much more sense. When you commit to the guard you are stuck for the most part in one place. Of course I don't have a lot of ground experience almost all stand-up. I've just tossed it around with my buddies who study BJJ and the only advice I can give is that if you plan on pulling guard you better be damn good at it! If not the only use I really see is in a defensive nature like... you got knocked on you ass and you tie him up till something presents itself and hopefully your buddies not his show up. I fully respect the guard and Ironman has made some wicked points about uses but I guess I just don't see it. agree to disagree. Although I'm all for any counter suggestions cause the more you know the better eh.
 
#21 ·
IronMan said:
Did you read the post you quoted?

A full guard provides control of the back and the hips. So does a butterfly guard. They both do exactly the same thing but in different ways. Buttfly guard is way more risky than full guard and it lacks alot of the basic control of a full guard situation.

You call yourself BJJ Boy, so you should already know this. If you get a good armbar or triangle, he can't get his hips under to lift you. If you get a good armbar or triangle he can't just smash you with his shoulders because you are controlling what his body is doing with your legs. If you are a good ground fighter he will not crush you!

You're absolutely right you don't know what you're fighting on the street, but the closed guard is a control position. That means that, even though you are on the bottom, you are in a good position. If you're fighting Jeff Monson, you got yourself into that mess, but strength doesn't matter as much as ability.

Someone else mentioned stomping. This is another reason why the guard is a good position. If you get the guard on him, he is on top of you. This means that his body will protect your body from the direct force of the stomps. Your head is still out there, but that's a little more mobile than the rest of the body.

Someone else mentioned passing straight to a triangle or an armbar. That works too, but the question was "is the guard effective on the street?"

Lets just say were both right.:D
 
#22 ·
raymardo said:
You made many good points and strong arguments for the guard being effective in a street fight.

I'm curious as to your opinion on defending against simple finger strikes or gouges to the eyes and to the throat.
Control the hands, then it's not a problem.

-Lukas- said:
There are loads of arguments that point against using closed guard on the street:
1. Stuff on the ground: Guard may be fun to pull on your cushy dojo mats, or even a hardwood gym floor, but try that shit on a real street, with concrete, bumps, broken glass and garbage lying around, and everything looks a little different.
This is a good point, but, honestly, the only part where the concrete really makes a difference is in the initial slam, and if you are smart you can just pull guard and get rid of that fairly quickly.

If your concern in a streetfight is getting your back scratched on the concrete, your obviously a sissy, so don't get in a streetfight.

2. Buddies: Its pretty rare that criminals operate alone, and if they aren't and you pull guard, you just signed your own death sentence, and believe me it will NOT be quick and painless. If its a street fight due to bullying, or someone acting like a jackass, odds are, they still have some kind of buddy around to stomp on you. I almost never see people that would normally walk around in an agressive enough manner for you to get into a fight with them that don't have at least one buddy around.
Generally, I don't get into streetfights with guys who have lots of friends, that's just bad policy, but even in that situation, you can be mobile and protect yourself. If you are going to sit in guard in a streetfight, you probably aren't a good enough grappler to be doing that.

Mobility is important and, if he has alot of friends, him being on top can make him a convenient sheild. Especially if you are mobile and have solid control him with your hips.

3. Weapons: If the guy pulls a knife on you and you're on the ground, you're in a LOT more trouble than if you're standing. You have no real chance to get away now unless you defeat him in some manner (breaking something significant or choking him out). Someone attacking you with a knife while you're grappling with them will almost surely result in your death, (And then you'll never know if Chuck actually ever stood a chance against Fedor (I doubt it))
Clearly you didn't read my whole bit on controlling his hands. Any smart grappler, especially one who trains for practical combat, knows that weapons are just extensions of the fighter. Knives are no exception. If you control his wrists then his chances of stabbing you probably aren't very good.

If you go to the ground with an opponent and have him in your guard what are you going to do besides finish him with a submission. You say that breaking something or choking him out is something that you shouldn't expect, but the guard is just a position where someone transitions to do those kinds of things.

IMHO you want to keep any street fight standing up if possible. Of course you want to know how to grapple because: a) Its sooooo fun, b) Its useful in "schoolyard" type fights, and c) if you ever do end up on the ground you at least want to know what to do.
Punching, kicking, and Throws are your friend on the street. (Especially throws for that matter, try a real seio-nage on someone on asphalt, and around 90% of the time, they will be knocked the **** out or so winded and injured they wont do shit all anymore for the next three weeks!)
People say this all the time. "You want to stand up because you can finish a fight so quickly with a slam or a punch or a kick." I still don't understand what people mean. If I'm standing with a guy we can both knock each other out. How is that good for me?

I don't know about you, but I want to be in a position to control my opponent. I want to know that it's going to take more than a second for him to stop me.

It's good to know punching and kicking and clinches and knees, but in a street fight, I want to be sure that I have control over my opponent. That's why I like the guard because, once again, it is a control position. I have control. That's good. If I'm standing, I don't have control. That's fine for some people, but I would rather have control in a fight than not.

But that's just me.
 
#23 ·
a street fighter will reach down your pants and yank your balls off if youd watch it ont he ground. there are different subs than bjj,like the eye gauge and the finger snap and the hair pull and w/e like.....



you have the backmount to avoid these thingsd
 
#24 ·
JawShattera said:
a street fighter will reach down your pants and yank your balls off if youd watch it ont he ground. there are different subs than bjj,like the eye gauge and the finger snap and the hair pull and w/e like.....



you have the backmount to avoid these thingsd
Another person that posts without reading what's already there. I know it's time consuming, but I have to keep posting the same thing.

Control the hands. It's hard to grab someone's groin when they have control of your hands.
 
#25 ·
IronMan said:
Another person that posts without reading what's already there. I know it's time consuming, but I have to keep posting the same thing.

Control the hands. It's hard to grab someone's groin when they have control of your hands.
Yea... but what if you dont get time to control the hands, lets say you fall into gaurd and he just gets one right in youre face.
 
#26 ·
BJJ Boy said:
Yea... but what if you dont get time to control the hands, lets say you fall into gaurd and he just gets one right in youre face.
If he lands a shot on you and you have a good chin you should keep your head moving, so he doesn't get the opportunity to get into a groove and then you grab the wrists.

If he lands a shot and you don't have a chin, I don't have any advice for you, because your probably done.

To really answer your question, if you don't have control of the wrists then keep mobile and take control of the wrists.
 
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