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Old 05-27-2008, 05:55 PM   #61 (permalink)
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new level of respect for you iron man. hey what did you say your lineage was?

mines from the gene lebelle american juijitsu people. my coach is glenn cozzens. black belt in both judo and juijitsu, pretty bad dude. 99 gracie invitational champ.
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Old 05-27-2008, 06:25 PM   #62 (permalink)
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new level of respect for you iron man. hey what did you say your lineage was?

mines from the gene lebelle american juijitsu people. my coach is glenn cozzens. black belt in both judo and juijitsu, pretty bad dude. 99 gracie invitational champ.
As far as my BJJ training right now. My coach is Eduardo Rocha, third degree blackbelt under Royler Gracie, multiple time Pan American champion (won this year, too).

He's also a really good friend of Xande Ribeiro's, so I've gotten to work with him before. And we had Steve Maxwell training with us for a while. (Steve got his blackbelt, I believe, under Regis Libre, who got his blackbelt under Eduardo)

It's a pretty great place to train, we've got alot of really good guys.
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Old 05-27-2008, 11:08 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I was once sparring with another female that had a pretty good weight advantage. Once i finally got mount i pressed the tip of my elbow in the middle of her throat while squeezing her torso with my thighs. It took about 46 seconds of pressing but she finally went out.

I am not sure that is legal in most competitions.... But it is effective..
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Old 05-27-2008, 11:29 PM   #64 (permalink)
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WOW.. Iron-bro... Going all technical... Man I missed this forum... It just loads so slow on my PC....
ANYWAY...

My best submission I ever pulled off was in a training class... THe guy I was grappling with had side control and I was leaning more on my left side he was to my right... I tried to bring my legs over his head to get into the gaurg but some how managed to trap his left arm (THe one closest to my hea and spin him so his back was on my hip/right side... with his left arm trapped between my legs I grabbed his right arm and teucked it uder my left and leaned back so in essence I had him in kind of a crucifix position where his back was arched on my side I was doing an arm bar with my legs in kind of a figure 4 and I had his right arm in an arm bar as well of sorts with it trapped under left arm pinning it to my side I tucked my right arm behind his elbow and applied pressure as I leaned back and leaned to my left so his feet were lifted off the ground... I know it sound complicated but if I had a camera and a partner I could demonstrate it.. . How I landed it I think was more to the fact of luckand he missed a move he was attempting... still it was cool and my sensi saw the whole thing and looked at me in bewilderment..
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Old 05-28-2008, 12:51 AM   #65 (permalink)
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Haha alright guys, this may sound really lame but I'm proud of myself for it. Tonight I actually finished my first submission..

I was asked to grapple with a guy named Ta who has just started training this week (I've only been to a few actual grappling classes myself).. He's 28, built like a brick-shithouse, probably has about 30lbs on me and wrestled in highschool, whereas I'm 180lbs, lanky, and have no experience in grappling sports whatsoever.

Anyway, so our instructor starts me off on the bottom, with Ta in side control. As soon as we begin, I can feel how strong of a wrestler this guy is, as he managed to maintain side-control--even managing to switch sides--as I tried scrambling to reclaim half-guard/guard.

Finally, I pulled him into my guard, and I noticed him posture up, so I dropped opened my guard, and scrambled forward, grabbing his left leg for a single and I exploded forward putting him on his back, and myself into his guard. (I really surprised myself here because the guy was so strong and well-versed in wrestling compared to my complete lack of experience.)

Instantly, I broke his guard (using the advice of IronMan in the Back to the Basics thread LOL), and stepped over his legs into side control. As soon as I did this, he shrimped and I stepped over into mount, and he made the mistake of turning completely, consequently giving me his back. Instantly, I managed to get one hook, then the other in while controling his neck to flatten him out. Then suddenly, I threw my hips to the side forcing him to roll, which exposed his neck more, and I locked the choke in, causing him to tap---it reminded me very much of how GSP submitted Trigg with the RNC.

Long story short, I really impressed my coach with my quick-thinking in that situation, which was nice.

Sorry for the long read, I'm just really happy about it.

Last edited by Fedor>all : 05-28-2008 at 12:55 AM.
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Old 05-28-2008, 01:16 AM   #66 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by The Don View Post
WOW.. Iron-bro... Going all technical... Man I missed this forum... It just loads so slow on my PC....
ANYWAY...

My best submission I ever pulled off was in a training class... THe guy I was grappling with had side control and I was leaning more on my left side he was to my right... I tried to bring my legs over his head to get into the gaurg but some how managed to trap his left arm (THe one closest to my hea and spin him so his back was on my hip/right side... with his left arm trapped between my legs I grabbed his right arm and teucked it uder my left and leaned back so in essence I had him in kind of a crucifix position where his back was arched on my side I was doing an arm bar with my legs in kind of a figure 4 and I had his right arm in an arm bar as well of sorts with it trapped under left arm pinning it to my side I tucked my right arm behind his elbow and applied pressure as I leaned back and leaned to my left so his feet were lifted off the ground... I know it sound complicated but if I had a camera and a partner I could demonstrate it.. . How I landed it I think was more to the fact of luckand he missed a move he was attempting... still it was cool and my sensi saw the whole thing and looked at me in bewilderment..
Glad to have you back, Don. You've been missed.

Cool submission, too. I think I get the idea.

Congrats on the first sub, Fedor>all. I still remember my first submission: Americana from the bottom of half guard. Terrible form, but nice nostalgia.
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Old 05-28-2008, 01:43 AM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Congrats on the first sub, Fedor>all. I still remember my first submission: Americana from the bottom of half guard. Terrible form, but nice nostalgia.
Thanks man, you'll definitely be the first person I come to on the forum regarding technique and other issues I may come across.
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Old 05-28-2008, 10:07 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Thanks, wally. I really don't understand why this is hard for people to figure out.



Do you not understand the difference between an achilles lock and a heel hook? Do you know what a heel hook is? I'm forced to ask, have you ever read anything on jiu-jitsu every?

This is actually one of the most basic submission differentiations around. Confusing an ankle lock with a heel hook is like confusing an armbar with an omoplata. Come on.

OK. Now lets walk through your last post, an annoyingly spaced combination of the ridiculous arguments you either have made or were inevitably going to make.




A heel hook.

I've said that about three times now.




It's an expression in combat sports and it's grammatically correct.



You're fired from the grammar police for that highlighted bit because, unlike wally's figure of speech, that's actually a real grammar error.

He has no grappling experience because he doesn't have any ranks in a grappling style. (Japanese jiu-jitsu is hardly a serious grappling style)

This guy started teaching after three years of training. He hardly sounds like a legitimate instructor since most instructors wait until they have about eight or ten years experience before they let anyone call them "sensei."

I've been training in martial arts for twice as long as this guy had been when he started teaching. I'm still definitely a student. (that's not to say I wouldn't choke his ass out in about ninety seconds, since I probably would)




Oooh, you went on wikipedia and looked up the history. Jujitsu (that's the Japanese style) is not an unarmed fighting system. It has unarmed techniques, but it also consists of weapons systems and styles.

Jiu-jitsu (the Brazilian spelling) is an adaptation of judo (not Japanese jujitsu) developed by the Gracies when they studied judo under a Japanese diplomat.




Um, actually, most traditional Gracie schools (especially the hardcore Brazilian ones) do teach their students to use strikes as a way of loosening up their opponents.

The main difference is actually that BJJ fighters generally train strictly for ground-based grappling, while JJJ fighters train predominantly for quick disarm and kill style fighting.




Clearly you don't. You don't know the history (as I've just established), but that's really a trivial thing.

What's more important is that you don't know the fighting style.




That's the first clinically accurate thing you've said.

However, Royce's opponents in the early UFC's were all, like this guy, non-BJJ practitioners.




Yeah, so what?

I'm 145 pounds right now (bulking up a little, though), and spent most of my open mat last night rolling with a 230 pound opponent with better skills than I have.

You're right that size is something that can be neutralized with great jiu-jitsu, but it's a nice advantage to have.




I think I've established that that's not true. This is a guy with a Japanese Jujitsu background. His game is not the same as wally's and it's definitely not the same as mine.



Actually, they are. Like I pointed out already, they don't even share a lineage.



And so I have. That doesn't mean other people shouldn't chime in as well, just because they disagree with you.
I've just explained to you that I know the difference between a heel hook and an Achilles lock. I told him that during an Achilles lock, if you slip your shoulder back you begin to press on the top of the foot, this creates pressure on the tendons in the top of the foot. In a heel hook (seriously correct me if I'm wrong), you put their heel in the pit of your elbow and pull upwards correct? In an achilles you wrap your arm around so your forearm is under their tendon and bottom of their calf, and pull up. Seriously correct me if I'm wrong because I'd honestly like to know. If I knew you I'd demonstrate what I meant to you because it'd be a hell of a lot easier than explaining it. I didn't look anything up on wikipedia (believe it or not!), I know that a japanese judoka came to brazil and showed it to the gracies and they made their own style. However, you fail to mention the fact that jujitsu was actually the predecessor of Judo (weather you didnt know or just chose not to mention that is beyond me), so yes, JJJ and BJJ share a very, very strong lineage. If you want to get technical, JJJ is the basis of all BJJ. Also, JJJ was created for the precise reason I stated, I have a few books on it, I've heard it in multiple lectures and I've heard it from the instructors I've spoken with.

A few other things I'd like to point out that you said are that you say "wally's game and mine aren't the same." But yet you practice the same art, correct? therefore its a stylistic difference and you've well proven my point (unless I took the statement wrong). Lear threw nothing at me massively differently than what any other BJJ guy I've rolled with has. There isn't an extreme difference between the two. Sure JJJ was founded to kill people and BJJ isn't supposed to be that way, but it easily still can. All that means is that they took out the "kill moves" from JJJ (actually judo did). The base submissions (kimoras, armbars, and other joint locks or chokes) are still relatively the same.

Lastly, to be honest i'm very happy you've chimed in. I open to learning about things but some of the things you've said are fallacy from what I was tought. I'm not trying to be a troll or whatever, I'm trying to have a constructive debate and sorry if it comes off differently because of wally's arrogant comment. If what I said about the heel hook v achilles lock differs from what you're talking about, then find some pictures and show me what you mean by it, please.
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Old 05-28-2008, 10:26 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TraMaI View Post
I've just explained to you that I know the difference between a heel hook and an Achilles lock. I told him that during an Achilles lock, if you slip your shoulder back you begin to press on the top of the foot, this creates pressure on the tendons in the top of the foot. In a heel hook (seriously correct me if I'm wrong), you put their heel in the pit of your elbow and pull upwards correct? In an achilles you wrap your arm around so your forearm is under their tendon and bottom of their calf, and pull up. Seriously correct me if I'm wrong because I'd honestly like to know. If I knew you I'd demonstrate what I meant to you because it'd be a hell of a lot easier than explaining it. I didn't look anything up on wikipedia (believe it or not!), I know that a japanese judoka came to brazil and showed it to the gracies and they made their own style. However, you fail to mention the fact that jujitsu was actually the predecessor of Judo (weather you didnt know or just chose not to mention that is beyond me), so yes, JJJ and BJJ share a very, very strong lineage. If you want to get technical, JJJ is the basis of all BJJ. Also, JJJ was created for the precise reason I stated, I have a few books on it, I've heard it in multiple lectures and I've heard it from the instructors I've spoken with.

A few other things I'd like to point out that you said are that you say "wally's game and mine aren't the same." But yet you practice the same art, correct? therefore its a stylistic difference and you've well proven my point (unless I took the statement wrong). Lear threw nothing at me massively differently than what any other BJJ guy I've rolled with has. There isn't an extreme difference between the two. Sure JJJ was founded to kill people and BJJ isn't supposed to be that way, but it easily still can. All that means is that they took out the "kill moves" from JJJ (actually judo did). The base submissions (kimoras, armbars, and other joint locks or chokes) are still relatively the same.

Lastly, to be honest i'm very happy you've chimed in. I open to learning about things but some of the things you've said are fallacy from what I was tought. I'm not trying to be a troll or whatever, I'm trying to have a constructive debate and sorry if it comes off differently because of wally's arrogant comment. If what I said about the heel hook v achilles lock differs from what you're talking about, then find some pictures and show me what you mean by it, please.
juijitsu was many many fighting styles not just one. jigaro kano took from what he knew about many juijitsu to create judo (the gentle way) which he was basicly him taking out moves based on size and strength and getting ride of all the water down parts because jj had become very much weaker sense the samurai class was dying out. he did this in i think the 1890s. he took the belt system from karate.

in the 1930s the gracies learned judo...then decided to add "kill moves" and shit they liked back in and call it juijitsu again, and sense the arts get their name from the creators, it became gracie juijitsu...


happy now? ive explained it better...also not all juijitsu are the same, in fact they can be completely irrelevant. expecially japanese styles of juijitsu which often focus on crappy standing wrist locks. when the samurai class was dying out the forms of juijitsu became broken alot, which is the whole reason judo came to be.
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Old 05-28-2008, 11:32 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Tra, I'm gonna break down your post a little so it's more digestable.

Quote:
Originally Posted by TraMaI View Post
I've just explained to you that I know the difference between a heel hook and an Achilles lock.
I think this may actually be the first time that you've used the word heel hook on the thread, but I'll look in a minute just to be sure.

Quote:
I told him that during an Achilles lock, if you slip your shoulder back you begin to press on the top of the foot, this creates pressure on the tendons in the top of the foot. In a heel hook (seriously correct me if I'm wrong), you put their heel in the pit of your elbow and pull upwards correct?
Yes, this action is called hooking the heel, and any submission grappling expert (guys smarter than I am) will tell you that this puts the muscles in the leg at risk for tearing, while the achilles lock does not.
Quote:
In an achilles you wrap your arm around so your forearm is under their tendon and bottom of their calf, and pull up.
Yes. It's raw, straight, leverageless pressure from a clamped down position. While this can do damage to really sensitive areas (like, say, the trachea on a guillotine or an RNC), there's not enough leverage the damage the tendons in the foot until you trap the heel.

That's the difference, and why the risk of injury in a heel hook is very high, while in an achilles lock it is not.


Quote:
I didn't look anything up on wikipedia (believe it or not!), I know that a japanese judoka came to brazil and showed it to the gracies and they made their own style. However, you fail to mention the fact that jujitsu was actually the predecessor of Judo (weather you didnt know or just chose not to mention that is beyond me), so yes, JJJ and BJJ share a very, very strong lineage.
Really, because it looks like you got this straight out of the wikipedia entry.

Unfortunately wikipedia is wrong on this one, and it happens sometimes.

Japanese Jujitsu developed, you correctly point out, as a battlefield fighting system for dealing with armed opponents, but Judo is a very small offshoot style that came out of a grappling branch and eventually became the Japanese equivalent of wrestling.

What you are saying is basically the Pankration can be called the ancestor of modern wrestling, which is fine to argue, but you have to concede that it's not where the style started and they are hardly direct parentage.

Saying that BJJ is a direct child of JJJ may be true, but if you do that then you are basically crediting JJJ with the invention of sumo (a system that developed out of Judo as well). Most people don't go that far. If you do, fine, but admit it.

BJJ is not a direct offshoot of JJJ, and if you look at the styles next to each other, they bear almost no resemblance whatsoever. JJJ is a much more comprehensive system, and BJJ is a much more technical grappling system.


Quote:
If you want to get technical, JJJ is the basis of all BJJ. Also, JJJ was created for the precise reason I stated, I have a few books on it, I've heard it in multiple lectures and I've heard it from the instructors I've spoken with.
And I've read basically every book there is about BJJ, watched dozens of documentaries and talked about it with direct Gracie students and Royler. This is something that I know a little bit of the history of.

I didn't disagree with you about your premises about JJJ, I disagreed with you when you said that it bears resemblance to BJJ (or, in the very least, implied it by insisting on the connection between the two), which is an outright lie.

I should add that Wally's historical point about the origin of modern jiu-jitsu is true, but I was avoiding the differentiation because I though it unnecessary. Still, good point.


Quote:
A few other things I'd like to point out that you said are that you say "wally's game and mine aren't the same." But yet you practice the same art, correct?
We both practice BJJ.

I also practice Aikido, judo, some small circle stuff, San Shou, catch wrestling and some combat Sambo. I consider myself a grappler, not a BJJ fighter. I happen to train in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, but don't be so naive as to assume that that's all I do (or that that's all wally does). I am posting in a "Mixed Martial Arts" forum, after all.

But even within BJJ, we may come from within different lineages of BJJ and that can make the game totally different. I've rolled with Cesar Gracie guys and it's like I know an entirely different jiu-jitsu system, it's hardly recognizable. If you go off a couple of generations (since it looks like Wally and I are both fairly direct Gracie descendents), and you get to 10th Planet and that sh*t, it's a totally different universe.

Even within the same school, my game is totally different that 9 out of 10 guys I train with. I have different backgrounds, many of them have different backgrounds, and those things change the way that we fight, it changes the way that we work and it changes the jiu-jitsu.

Still, this is a fairly marginal argument, and not really relevant. I just wanted to clarify my point.


Quote:
therefore its a stylistic difference and you've well proven my point (unless I took the statement wrong). Lear threw nothing at me massively differently than what any other BJJ guy I've rolled with has.
I'm gonna go back and say this again, but first I want to quote the next line, so that you understand how nuts you sound.

Quote:
There isn't an extreme difference between the two.
Yes, there is!

I don't know how much more clearly I can say this.

Japanese jujitsu incorporates standing submissions, strikes, weapons techniques and flying attacks that don't exist in Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Japanese jujitsu is a system created for combat against many opponents and for use against weapons. BJJ is a competition based system designed for 1 on 1 competition.

JJJ is a comprehensive fighting system that goes into all of the nooks and crannies of military warfare. BJJ is a strict grappling system.

There are things that a BJJ guy will hit you with that a JJJ guy won't know. (they don't teach the gogoplata in JJJ, though they should) There are things that a JJJ guy will do that a BJJ guy wouldn't waste his time with.


Quote:
Sure JJJ was founded to kill people and BJJ isn't supposed to be that way, but it easily still can.
I don't think anyone is arguing that you can't kill someone with BJJ. If they are, then you are perfectly entitled to tell them to shut their cakehole.
Quote:
All that means is that they took out the "kill moves" from JJJ (actually judo did).
Yeah.

They took out the kill moves.

And the strikes.

And the small joint manipulations.

And the flying submissions.

And the weapons techniques.

And the disarming techniques.

And the combat strategy.

And the dietary ideology.

And the traditional Japanese value structure.

But yeah, still basically the same system.


Quote:
Lastly, to be honest i'm very happy you've chimed in. I open to learning about things but some of the things you've said are fallacy from what I was tought.
Well, at least you're open.
Quote:
I'm not trying to be a troll or whatever, I'm trying to have a constructive debate and sorry if it comes off differently because of wally's arrogant comment.
Why is wally's comment arrogant? His remarks were straightforward and blunt, but true.

Quote:
If what I said about the heel hook v achilles lock differs from what you're talking about, then find some pictures and show me what you mean by it, please.
No, you know what you're talking about, but you don't understand the basic anatomical principle behind the injury. Look at the top of the post again if you're still confused.
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