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Old 05-29-2008, 12:54 AM   #71 (permalink)
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Okay, something is either being misinterpreted or we're thinking of two completely different ******* moves bro. An achilles lock in my book is nowhere NEAR a heel hook aside from the fact that its a leg lock. If the minute difference between a "straight ankle lock" (which you seem to be making it) and an achilles lock is that you slip your shoulder back two inches then so be it. The top of the post is somewhat vague in that I pointed out two different things and you said "this is called hooking the heel" which I assume you meant was putting the heel into the pit of your elbow, or else one of us is a total retard. I'm not talking about hooking the heel AT ALL in this submission (with the argument that the achilles can't do any "permanant damage"), I'm saying that while in an ACHILLES LOCK, you slip your armpit/shoulder down farther the top of the foot, instead of having it directly on the area between the shin/ankle (where it wouldnt cause serious damage). I'm not saying hooking hte heel or anything, I'm saying that in the exact for of an achilles, just scoot the armpit/shoulder back so it's on top of toe knucks or just below them, THEN apply pressure. THAT will tear teh **** out of the tendons in the top of the foot if enough pressure is applied. To my knowledge, that is most definately not a heel hook but may very well be a straight ankle lock and I couldve just never learned it that way. But please, continue enlightening me, we basically are saying almost the same thign (aside from BJJ and JJJ being almost the same [which I am NOT but you seem to misunderstand that as well])for most of the arguement.

Before i end the post I'd actually like to touch on that though.

Quote:
Yeah.

They took out the kill moves.

And the strikes.

And the small joint manipulations.

And the flying submissions.

And the weapons techniques.

And the disarming techniques.

And the combat strategy.

And the dietary ideology.

And the traditional Japanese value structure.

But yeah, still basically the same system.
Even WITH all of those taken out from JJJ, the submission base is still formed in JJJ. Thats what I was trying to say, not that they are 100% the same thing, but that JJJ is the base for BJJ and because of that they bare some similarities and they aren't two ENTRIRELY different things (ala TKD vs BJJ).
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Old 05-29-2008, 02:23 AM   #72 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TraMaI View Post
Okay, something is either being misinterpreted or we're thinking of two completely different ******* moves bro. An achilles lock in my book is nowhere NEAR a heel hook aside from the fact that its a leg lock. If the minute difference between a "straight ankle lock" (which you seem to be making it) and an achilles lock is that you slip your shoulder back two inches then so be it.
So your differentiation between a "straight ankle lock" and an "achilles lock" is the angle that the should is at?

Honestly, there's no difference between the two moves, man. I call it an achilles lock because, well, it stresses the achilles tendon, and it doesn't actually put any stress on the ankle (that would be the joint).

Either way, with the "straight ankle lock" and the "achilles lock," there is no risk of permanent damage because it is a static, leverage-less, pain based submission. A point that you have not contradicted and the one that is really the point.

I don't care about the differentiation you are making between a "straight ankle lock" and an "achilles lock" because, as far as I'm concerned, their the same move at slightly different angles.

The question was of whether there is permanent damage from a technique that stresses the achilles tendon in the way that the achilles lock does, and the answer seems to be no.

If you want to argue that point, go ahead, but otherwise we're off topic.


Quote:
I'm saying that while in an ACHILLES LOCK, you slip your armpit/shoulder down farther the top of the foot, instead of having it directly on the area between the shin/ankle (where it wouldnt cause serious damage).
You're missing the point here.

The point is that you cannot stress the muscles in the leg in a way that would cause long term damage without hooking the heel because you can't apply leverage.

You're implying that you can apply leverage to the top of the foot while keeping your arm above the heel, and you can believe that if you want to, but really all that you are doing is changing the angle that you are applying the achilles lock at. It doesn't change the point of strain in the lock at all and doesn't put any of the bones or muscles at risk.

It's a pain based lock, and that was the point that was being made. There are entire schools of thought that believe a fighter should never tap to that lock.


Quote:
I'm not saying hooking hte heel or anything, I'm saying that in the exact for of an achilles, just scoot the armpit/shoulder back so it's on top of toe knucks or just below them, THEN apply pressure. THAT will tear teh **** out of the tendons in the top of the foot if enough pressure is applied.
Again, you're confused as where to the leverage is when you are finishing this submission.

There is some mild strain in the top of the foot, but the purpose of the leverage change is the put more force on the achilles tendon by adjusting the angle that you squeeze it with your forearm bone.


Quote:
To my knowledge, that is most definately not a heel hook but may very well be a straight ankle lock and I couldve just never learned it that way. But please, continue enlightening me, we basically are saying almost the same thign (aside from BJJ and JJJ being almost the same [which I am NOT but you seem to misunderstand that as well])for most of the arguement.
Maybe you learned it differently. That doesn't mean you learned it right, man. I know armbars where you don't trap the head. They work some of the time, but I would hardly call them "right" or "substantial."

Quote:
Before i end the post I'd actually like to touch on that though.
Go ahead.

Quote:
Even WITH all of those taken out from JJJ, the submission base is still formed in JJJ. Thats what I was trying to say, not that they are 100% the same thing, but that JJJ is the base for BJJ and because of that they bare some similarities and they aren't two ENTRIRELY different things (ala TKD vs BJJ).
No, it's not.

The submission bases in JJJ range in everything from the small joint manipulations that appear in forms like Hapkido, Small Circle JJ and Aikido to some of the large joint manipulations that appear in judo. (the kimura appears, even rudimentary versions of the armbar show up at blackbelt levels in judo)

You can say that Japanese Jujitsu is the base for BJJ all you want, but, again, that's not an accurate representation of the connection between the two.

BJJ is a totally different system with joint locks that don't exist in JJJ, and JJJ is a system that has entire parts of its style (even beyond the tons of stuff that I mentioned already, so that we're just looking at the submissions) that aren't in BJJ.

There are no wristlocks in BJJ, but there are tons in JJJ.

There is twister in JJJ, but it's a common move in more advanced BJJ circles.

There are tons of moves and positions in BJJ I could name that have no relation to JJJ, at least as far as I'm aware, but I'll throw out the short list and see if you can find a connection. If you can, I'd love to see it.

Let's start with the positions:

Spider guard
Butterfly guard
Mount
Half guard
X-Guard
Turtle position

Here's some submissions:

Gogoplata
Omoplata
Twister
Kneebar

There is plenty in JJJ that was thrown out. There's also plenty in BJJ that's totally different.
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Old 06-15-2008, 05:02 PM   #73 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Glad to have you back, Don. You've been missed.

Cool submission, too. I think I get the idea.

Congrats on the first sub, Fedor>all. I still remember my first submission: Americana from the bottom of half guard. Terrible form, but nice nostalgia.
Thanks I am easier to get ahold of over on the MMAPlayground.com That site does not over load my PC like this one does I go by The-Don if you over there shoot me a message... Plus I am hoping to open my own school here soon in the next few months.. I have hookd up with some really great instructors both for stand up and grappling... shoot me a line over there man... When I get a better PC I will be on here a bit more often.. there is just too much here for my PC to handle..


And Fedor>all I love the RNC one of my favorite subs.. congrats... It is one those with wrestling backgrounds give up alot in the begining cause thier natual tendency is to not go to thier backs so they give up thier back alot.. good job taking advantage of it...
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Old 06-14-2009, 02:15 AM   #74 (permalink)
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Best sub ever... double armbar. amazing moment.
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Old 06-14-2009, 05:00 AM   #75 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
So your differentiation between a "straight ankle lock" and an "achilles lock" is the angle that the should is at?

Honestly, there's no difference between the two moves, man. I call it an achilles lock because, well, it stresses the achilles tendon, and it doesn't actually put any stress on the ankle (that would be the joint).

Either way, with the "straight ankle lock" and the "achilles lock," there is no risk of permanent damage because it is a static, leverage-less, pain based submission. A point that you have not contradicted and the one that is really the point.

I don't care about the differentiation you are making between a "straight ankle lock" and an "achilles lock" because, as far as I'm concerned, their the same move at slightly different angles.

The question was of whether there is permanent damage from a technique that stresses the achilles tendon in the way that the achilles lock does, and the answer seems to be no.

If you want to argue that point, go ahead, but otherwise we're off topic.




You're missing the point here.

The point is that you cannot stress the muscles in the leg in a way that would cause long term damage without hooking the heel because you can't apply leverage.

You're implying that you can apply leverage to the top of the foot while keeping your arm above the heel, and you can believe that if you want to, but really all that you are doing is changing the angle that you are applying the achilles lock at. It doesn't change the point of strain in the lock at all and doesn't put any of the bones or muscles at risk.

It's a pain based lock, and that was the point that was being made. There are entire schools of thought that believe a fighter should never tap to that lock.




Again, you're confused as where to the leverage is when you are finishing this submission.

There is some mild strain in the top of the foot, but the purpose of the leverage change is the put more force on the achilles tendon by adjusting the angle that you squeeze it with your forearm bone.




Maybe you learned it differently. That doesn't mean you learned it right, man. I know armbars where you don't trap the head. They work some of the time, but I would hardly call them "right" or "substantial."



Go ahead.



No, it's not.

The submission bases in JJJ range in everything from the small joint manipulations that appear in forms like Hapkido, Small Circle JJ and Aikido to some of the large joint manipulations that appear in judo. (the kimura appears, even rudimentary versions of the armbar show up at blackbelt levels in judo)

You can say that Japanese Jujitsu is the base for BJJ all you want, but, again, that's not an accurate representation of the connection between the two.

BJJ is a totally different system with joint locks that don't exist in JJJ, and JJJ is a system that has entire parts of its style (even beyond the tons of stuff that I mentioned already, so that we're just looking at the submissions) that aren't in BJJ.

There are no wristlocks in BJJ, but there are tons in JJJ.

There is twister in JJJ, but it's a common move in more advanced BJJ circles.

There are tons of moves and positions in BJJ I could name that have no relation to JJJ, at least as far as I'm aware, but I'll throw out the short list and see if you can find a connection. If you can, I'd love to see it.

Let's start with the positions:

Spider guard
Butterfly guard
Mount
Half guard
X-Guard
Turtle position

Here's some submissions:

Gogoplata
Omoplata
Twister
Kneebar

There is plenty in JJJ that was thrown out. There's also plenty in BJJ that's totally different.
bjj technically doesn't really exist. gracie juijitsu is the base form everyones referring to.

the art came directly from one of jigaro kano's students, and judo. the kimora match is just an event that happened.

all of those martial arts from from different samurai arts. samurai were a class and its members were born into it and forced to learn the martial art of their group. (we still wear gi's which are actually kimo's and thats what you wear under samurai armor, or even just around at the time) martial arts get their name from their masters, the gracies started the popular form of juijitsu, so its called gracie juijitsu, but then the break offs would need to have their juijitsu named after them...bravo juijitsu, machado jiujitsu etc.

jigaro kano learned several forms of different familys jiujitsu and combined them to form judo and create a sport.


but for the most part no one does any of the 3 arts purely anymore. im a submission wrestler a lot of my moves from from brazilian jiujitsu, but i also do wrist locks for standing control to get take downs, now is that greco roman, or JJJ, or is it all the grappling sports slowly watering into one form of grappling?
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Old 06-14-2009, 02:49 PM   #76 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
So your differentiation between a "straight ankle lock" and an "achilles lock" is the angle that the should is at?

Honestly, there's no difference between the two moves, man. I call it an achilles lock because, well, it stresses the achilles tendon, and it doesn't actually put any stress on the ankle (that would be the joint).

Either way, with the "straight ankle lock" and the "achilles lock," there is no risk of permanent damage because it is a static, leverage-less, pain based submission. A point that you have not contradicted and the one that is really the point.

I don't care about the differentiation you are making between a "straight ankle lock" and an "achilles lock" because, as far as I'm concerned, their the same move at slightly different angles.

The question was of whether there is permanent damage from a technique that stresses the achilles tendon in the way that the achilles lock does, and the answer seems to be no.

If you want to argue that point, go ahead, but otherwise we're off topic.




You're missing the point here.

The point is that you cannot stress the muscles in the leg in a way that would cause long term damage without hooking the heel because you can't apply leverage.

You're implying that you can apply leverage to the top of the foot while keeping your arm above the heel, and you can believe that if you want to, but really all that you are doing is changing the angle that you are applying the achilles lock at. It doesn't change the point of strain in the lock at all and doesn't put any of the bones or muscles at risk.

It's a pain based lock, and that was the point that was being made. There are entire schools of thought that believe a fighter should never tap to that lock.




Again, you're confused as where to the leverage is when you are finishing this submission.

There is some mild strain in the top of the foot, but the purpose of the leverage change is the put more force on the achilles tendon by adjusting the angle that you squeeze it with your forearm bone.




Maybe you learned it differently. That doesn't mean you learned it right, man. I know armbars where you don't trap the head. They work some of the time, but I would hardly call them "right" or "substantial."



Go ahead.



No, it's not.

The submission bases in JJJ range in everything from the small joint manipulations that appear in forms like Hapkido, Small Circle JJ and Aikido to some of the large joint manipulations that appear in judo. (the kimura appears, even rudimentary versions of the armbar show up at blackbelt levels in judo)

You can say that Japanese Jujitsu is the base for BJJ all you want, but, again, that's not an accurate representation of the connection between the two.

BJJ is a totally different system with joint locks that don't exist in JJJ, and JJJ is a system that has entire parts of its style (even beyond the tons of stuff that I mentioned already, so that we're just looking at the submissions) that aren't in BJJ.

There are no wristlocks in BJJ, but there are tons in JJJ.

There is twister in JJJ, but it's a common move in more advanced BJJ circles.

There are tons of moves and positions in BJJ I could name that have no relation to JJJ, at least as far as I'm aware, but I'll throw out the short list and see if you can find a connection. If you can, I'd love to see it.

Let's start with the positions:

Spider guard
Butterfly guard
Mount
Half guard
X-Guard
Turtle position

Here's some submissions:

Gogoplata
Omoplata
Twister
Kneebar

There is plenty in JJJ that was thrown out. There's also plenty in BJJ that's totally different.
Unless i'm reading this post wrong, i disagree. i have suffered some semi-long term damage from a Achilles lock. i had my tendon crushed, and it took about a year and a half to completley heal. but then again. i may have misunderstood you. haha
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Old 06-14-2009, 07:15 PM   #77 (permalink)
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in sparring once, i pulled a choke, i don't even know what you call it, it was there and i grabbed it; saw Jeff Monson do something like it once, don't remember what he called it.

i was north/south, and pulled a "guillotine" from the top, arm in, pulled him back so i was sitting on my ass and put the hooks in and layed back. wasn't a choke but a neck crank.
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Old 06-15-2009, 01:08 PM   #78 (permalink)
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Me and my friend were doing a MMA match, and get went for a takedown on me, and i pushed his head down into a upsidedown triangle, (where i was upside down, and i locked it in when he was standing up), He fell to the ground,(i'm on his back about this time) and i got his other arm by planting one of my arms in the ground and using it to put him in a armbar. (While the triangle was still in)
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Old 06-16-2009, 08:22 AM   #79 (permalink)
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Old 01-07-2010, 07:33 AM   #80 (permalink)
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once i was dominated in the stand up (mma), almost TKOed, evantualy i got the fight to the mat, and somehow i locked an arm trianle, and rotate to the side, anfter 15 seconds or so, he tapped (it's been my favorite submission ever since)
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