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Old 09-27-2006, 03:18 PM   #11 (permalink)
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escaping pins

Here are some notes I have taken from Michel Jen and Matt Thonton:



1. Pin avoidance. Your opponent has 0% pinning control over you and doesn't even come close to keeping you flat on your back. As soon as you sense the potential of being pinned, your escape happens.

2. Pin prevention. Your opponent has partial control. He is able to place some body weight on you, however, he does not have any significant control with his arms. With only partial control, movement and escape is much easier.

3. Pin escape. Your opponent has total control. He has is you flat on your back with his arms sunk in and his body totally on top of yours.

Bridging your opponent off is not done in #1 and #2. The main tactics in #1 and #2 are going to your knees, pulling in the guard, or rolling your opponent over by sitting up. The problem that many beginners have is that they only recognize #3 (Pin Escape). The reason is that beginners often think of different positions like separate compartments. For example, beginners think of closed guard, open guard, and pin escapes and 3 separate and different areas of the BJJ game. They think of pin escapes in the context of doing a technique once a pin is locked in rather than, going back the earlier example, an extension of their guard.

Not getting pinned is easiest in situation #1 and gets progressively more difficult as you move toward #3. Escaping a pin when it is sunk in 100% with someone who is skilled and very strong is like trying to escaping an armbar when you arm is locked out 100% and your opponent is just about to raise his hips off the ground. Given that fact, with certain opponents, you must be willing to face the sad reality that escape may not be possible.

Due to the fact that #1 and #2 are often neglected by beginners, if you focus a little more time on those areas, I think you notice a difference in your game.

Well, with that being said, no matter how good your pin avoidance and prevention are, there are times when someone is able to get the pin sunk in. Sometimes a pin is sunk and you don?t even have posture. You?re in a really bad position. Here are some general guidelines to escaping.

1. Create space in order to get your hands into posture. Since you are being pinned flat on your flat and you don?t have posture, space is not and cannot created by the snake/shrimp hip scoot. It must be done by changing the angle of your body in relation to your opponent?s body, all of which can be done without turning your hips and shoulders onto its side.

2. Establish posture and create even more space. Once posture is established, you have 2 options depending on the skill level of your opponent. Against a lesser skilled opponent, it may be very easy to create a large amount of space to turn hips and shoulders on their side and the opportunity to escape may be right there. If you are dealing with a more skilled opponent, you will need to go to step 3.

3. Create momentum. Against very skilled opponent, you must now create momentum and remove their control over your head/neck (depending on how they are pinning). This is an advanced concept, that is difficult for beginners to understand or do. Your goal is create a situation in which your opponent is constantly unstable and off-balance.

4. 5 methods of escape: pulling guard/half guard, go to knees, bridge your opponent over, take your opponent?s back, or sitting up to roll your opponent onto his back. To effectively escape, you must be ready to use all 5 methods and use them in combination. Most beginners have trouble because their mind gets locked into only doing 1 or 2 methods.

In the event that posture cannot be established no matter what you do, you have a couple options.

1. Think of the concept of attacking high and low. Let me draw an analogy with kickboxing. When your opponent defends against a punch to the face, you kick him in the legs. When he thinks you are going to kick him in the leg, you punch him in the face. Pretty obvious and simple concept right? Well, pin escapes can utilize the same principle. When your opponent focuses on stopping your arms from getting in posture (high), you attack the legs (low) (I don?t mean leglocks, but rather it refers certain escapes in which you grab and push on your opponent?s legs). If you are successful in executing these ?leg grabbing escapes? great, but if not, that?s fine. Many times your opponent will change his focus to stopping the low attack which will give you the opening to attack high again.

2. If all that fails, your last option is to bait your opponent. Give an obvious opening for a submission or better position. If your opponent takes the bait, he creates a small opening for you to escape. The key to successfully executing the ?bait and escape? is timing. Move too early and you give away your plan. Move too late and you either get submitted or are in an even worse position



Fundamental 5 of Escapes

1. Hip and Hunchback - turn on one hip, roll your shoulders.
2. Arms between you and your opponent.
3. Look and Feel - know how you are pinned.
4. 90/10 - Make space: 90% hips, 10% arms
5. Escapes - return to guard, go to knees or roll them.

I would elaborate on fundamental 5's next time.
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Old 09-27-2006, 07:41 PM   #12 (permalink)
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im assuming you also took that from a book/article like your other thread?

No offense to you in anyway but i find ithard to beleive u wrote that.
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Old 09-27-2006, 08:09 PM   #13 (permalink)
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I believe he stated:

Quote:
Here are some notes I have taken from Michel Jen and Matt Thonton:
So yeah, he did take it from somewhere else. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't capable of writing something like that. That reminds me...

I've got threads that are overdue for updating.
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Old 09-28-2006, 09:20 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Onganju
I believe he stated:


So yeah, he did take it from somewhere else. But that doesn't necessarily mean that he isn't capable of writing something like that. That reminds me...

I've got threads that are overdue for updating.
your right, he might be very capable, but coping somthingout of abook doesnt show that YOU actually know how do it, i have plenty of BJJ books but when soemone starts a thread like this and i respond thats from pure experience of me in the gym.

So if you post from a book you need to give credit to the book, which he did, so good job there.
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Old 10-05-2006, 12:35 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Actually, it did not came out from a book, those are notes taken from Michael Jen and Matt thornton.

I am just sharing this notes because I learned a lot from it.

Last edited by jagg : 10-05-2006 at 01:17 AM.
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Old 10-05-2006, 01:15 AM   #16 (permalink)
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Anyway, the main gist that I got from the notes THAT I GOT from JEN and THORNTON is:

"When on bottom,always Create space with a frame(posture)
Move your hips,Always stay on your side(do not get caught flat on your back)
Learn basic escapes(going to knees,regaining guard,reversing the position then link/combine them together)"

I mentioned that I learned a lot from the notes because it is a concept about escaping,instead of me learning a lot of different techniques on escapes it is easier for me to perform my escapes if i know why im doing a certain move.

by the way ,conceptually and technically I KNOW HOW TO DO IT.
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Old 12-14-2006, 10:05 PM   #17 (permalink)
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thoughts on mount

Quote:
Originally Posted by jagg
Here are some notes I have taken from Michel Jen and Matt Thonton:



1. Pin avoidance. Your opponent has 0% pinning control over you and doesn't even come close to keeping you flat on your back. As soon as you sense the potential of being pinned, your escape happens.

2. Pin prevention. Your opponent has partial control. He is able to place some body weight on you, however, he does not have any significant control with his arms. With only partial control, movement and escape is much easier.

3. Pin escape. Your opponent has total control. He has is you flat on your back with his arms sunk in and his body totally on top of yours.

Bridging your opponent off is not done in #1 and #2. The main tactics in #1 and #2 are going to your knees, pulling in the guard, or rolling your opponent over by sitting up. The problem that many beginners have is that they only recognize #3 (Pin Escape). The reason is that beginners often think of different positions like separate compartments. For example, beginners think of closed guard, open guard, and pin escapes and 3 separate and different areas of the BJJ game. They think of pin escapes in the context of doing a technique once a pin is locked in rather than, going back the earlier example, an extension of their guard.

Not getting pinned is easiest in situation #1 and gets progressively more difficult as you move toward #3. Escaping a pin when it is sunk in 100% with someone who is skilled and very strong is like trying to escaping an armbar when you arm is locked out 100% and your opponent is just about to raise his hips off the ground. Given that fact, with certain opponents, you must be willing to face the sad reality that escape may not be possible.

Due to the fact that #1 and #2 are often neglected by beginners, if you focus a little more time on those areas, I think you notice a difference in your game.

Well, with that being said, no matter how good your pin avoidance and prevention are, there are times when someone is able to get the pin sunk in. Sometimes a pin is sunk and you don?t even have posture. You?re in a really bad position. Here are some general guidelines to escaping.

1. Create space in order to get your hands into posture. Since you are being pinned flat on your flat and you don?t have posture, space is not and cannot created by the snake/shrimp hip scoot. It must be done by changing the angle of your body in relation to your opponent?s body, all of which can be done without turning your hips and shoulders onto its side.

2. Establish posture and create even more space. Once posture is established, you have 2 options depending on the skill level of your opponent. Against a lesser skilled opponent, it may be very easy to create a large amount of space to turn hips and shoulders on their side and the opportunity to escape may be right there. If you are dealing with a more skilled opponent, you will need to go to step 3.

3. Create momentum. Against very skilled opponent, you must now create momentum and remove their control over your head/neck (depending on how they are pinning). This is an advanced concept, that is difficult for beginners to understand or do. Your goal is create a situation in which your opponent is constantly unstable and off-balance.

4. 5 methods of escape: pulling guard/half guard, go to knees, bridge your opponent over, take your opponent?s back, or sitting up to roll your opponent onto his back. To effectively escape, you must be ready to use all 5 methods and use them in combination. Most beginners have trouble because their mind gets locked into only doing 1 or 2 methods.

In the event that posture cannot be established no matter what you do, you have a couple options.

1. Think of the concept of attacking high and low. Let me draw an analogy with kickboxing. When your opponent defends against a punch to the face, you kick him in the legs. When he thinks you are going to kick him in the leg, you punch him in the face. Pretty obvious and simple concept right? Well, pin escapes can utilize the same principle. When your opponent focuses on stopping your arms from getting in posture (high), you attack the legs (low) (I don?t mean leglocks, but rather it refers certain escapes in which you grab and push on your opponent?s legs). If you are successful in executing these ?leg grabbing escapes? great, but if not, that?s fine. Many times your opponent will change his focus to stopping the low attack which will give you the opening to attack high again.

2. If all that fails, your last option is to bait your opponent. Give an obvious opening for a submission or better position. If your opponent takes the bait, he creates a small opening for you to escape. The key to successfully executing the ?bait and escape? is timing. Move too early and you give away your plan. Move too late and you either get submitted or are in an even worse position



Fundamental 5 of Escapes

1. Hip and Hunchback - turn on one hip, roll your shoulders.
2. Arms between you and your opponent.
3. Look and Feel - know how you are pinned.
4. 90/10 - Make space: 90% hips, 10% arms
5. Escapes - return to guard, go to knees or roll them.

I would elaborate on fundamental 5's next time.
You seem to mostly have copied and pasted something that mostly relates NOT to the mount.

Short thougths on the mount

When you are mounted, your main worry might be punches. You have to ask yourself why you got mounted, normally you should not get mounted, especially in a fight with punches since this gives your opponent sriking range while you dont have striking range. You could bump when he strikes, and then get some arm-hooks to control him, but be sure to keep your elbows tucked in and be aware of the triangle and the armbar.

I dont know if you train with punching, if you do then you might have to accept some punches here while you go for the escape. Try to dodge them as best as you can but be determined in your escape.

So how to escape?

Basically as people said before, you can bump him. Good things to think about here is that the side that you are bumping too, you should try to trap his arm and leg, using your same side arm and leg.

But before you do that, you have to be aware of where he is mounted on you. You should try to keep him as low on you as possible, the higher he mounts, the better control he has and the less bumping efficiency and other escape possibilities you have. If he gets high on you and puts one arm under your head and keeps it cool and follows you in your bumps, then you are pretty done most of the time.

So how do you keep him low? You use your arms and your hands on his lowest stomach to keep him away from you. When time comes you can bridge onto your shoulder, or lay onto your side, and bring your knee under him and using your elbows and hands you get the first knee free. Then you can lay on your other side and get the other knee free.

You can also use your legs and arms/elbows all at the same time to sort of slide yourself up a bit relative to him, if you think you want him to be lower on yourself. You simply slide your body along the mat. Then with arms at full length, hands together on his stomach, you keep him away. Then you try the knee/elbow escape (its the knee escaping, the elbow is just a little helper).

So in conclusion, you have variations of elbow/knee and bridges, that are your main tools. Keep him at distance and if you want to roll, try to lock one of his sides so he cant just post his hands and avert your roll. If punches are allowed, accept a few as punishment and time your escape when you think is the best time.

Have a nice day!
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Old 12-16-2006, 03:31 PM   #18 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astro2
You seem to mostly have copied and pasted something that mostly relates NOT to the mount.
Looked fine to me. They seem to be good notes for any position that one would rather not be in.

Quote:
When you are mounted, your main worry might be punches. You have to ask yourself why you got mounted, normally you should not get mounted, especially in a fight with punches since this gives your opponent sriking range while you dont have striking range. You could bump when he strikes, and then get some arm-hooks to control him, but be sure to keep your elbows tucked in and be aware of the triangle and the armbar.
Good point, but not really part of the topic. All beginning submission fighters get caught in the mount at one point or another and it even happens to professionals. He's just asking for ways to get out of mount once caught in the position.

Obviously, if the question was "Should I let myself get caught in mount?" your response was appropriate and the answer is clearly no.

But back to the topic.


Quote:
I dont know if you train with punching, if you do then you might have to accept some punches here while you go for the escape. Try to dodge them as best as you can but be determined in your escape.
Wherever you are and whatever style you are training in, the thought should, in my opinion, be practical application. So I suggest thinking about punches.

Quote:
So how to escape?
I think that was the question.

Quote:
Basically as people said before, you can bump him. Good things to think about here is that the side that you are bumping too, you should try to trap his arm and leg, using your same side arm and leg.
Unless you intend to go with a straight up, which gives you the power of both of your hips and allows you to backdoor.

Quote:
But before you do that, you have to be aware of where he is mounted on you. You should try to keep him as low on you as possible, the higher he mounts, the better control he has and the less bumping efficiency and other escape possibilities you have. If he gets high on you and puts one arm under your head and keeps it cool and follows you in your bumps, then you are pretty done most of the time.
Actually, in my experience, if a guy gets a mount on the chest you have one effective option:

Roll your legs up to try and offset his balance from back using your knees and then backdoor. If he has his hand on your head this may require some force and may not work against a good submission fighter, at least not on the first try.


Quote:
So how do you keep him low? You use your arms and your hands on his lowest stomach to keep him away from you. When time comes you can bridge onto your shoulder, or lay onto your side, and bring your knee under him and using your elbows and hands you get the first knee free. Then you can lay on your other side and get the other knee free.
This is a good strategy if you are trying to keep him in your guard. If you want to get him into a "better" position then you can always backdoor or sit-up and rush into his guard (requires some serious abdominal strength, but it can be done).

Quote:
You can also use your legs and arms/elbows all at the same time to sort of slide yourself up a bit relative to him, if you think you want him to be lower on yourself. You simply slide your body along the mat. Then with arms at full length, hands together on his stomach, you keep him away. Then you try the knee/elbow escape (its the knee escaping, the elbow is just a little helper).
Good escape.

Quote:
So in conclusion, you have variations of elbow/knee and bridges, that are your main tools. Keep him at distance and if you want to roll, try to lock one of his sides so he cant just post his hands and avert your roll. If punches are allowed, accept a few as punishment and time your escape when you think is the best time.
Good stuff.
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Old 01-11-2007, 02:12 PM   #19 (permalink)
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I believe the fundamentals of escape on that note would work on any inferior position(mount,sidemount)
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Old 01-22-2007, 07:13 AM   #20 (permalink)
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try the elbow knee escape, or foot lift or foot drag, or try securing the arm first then bucking.
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