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Old 02-01-2008, 04:25 AM   #21 (permalink)
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If you are using the proper technique for an armbar from back, you're almost perfectly perpendicular to your opponent, and applying enough pressure on their neck and back with your legs that your opponent is off balance and CAN NOT lift you up to slam you, let alone posture their own body up. Trouble is people don't always perform these techniques perfectly, and your opponent may not be off-balance.
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Old 02-01-2008, 07:45 AM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Robopencil View Post
If you are using the proper technique for an armbar from back, you're almost perfectly perpendicular to your opponent, and applying enough pressure on their neck and back with your legs that your opponent is off balance and CAN NOT lift you up to slam you, let alone posture their own body up. Trouble is people don't always perform these techniques perfectly, and your opponent may not be off-balance.
Exactly. These guys who cant get it arent doing it properly.
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Old 02-01-2008, 01:42 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Exactly. These guys who cant get it arent doing it properly.
Ok mr Self Taught Bjj Expert
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Old 02-02-2008, 03:15 AM   #24 (permalink)
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Ok mr Self Taught Bjj Expert
Exactly. Ive learnt more myself than i have at all the BJJ gyms ive been to combined. When you grow a brain, you'll reaslise that watching something done on a screen can be more beneficial than watching an instructor do the same thing for some people like myself. You can rewind the move on screen many times and analyse it. If watching a move done from every angle, endless amount of times and tryin it yourself on a willing participant isnt enough for you, forgot BJJ, go back to school and grow a brain.

And i'll surely tap you out with my home taught skills buddy.

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Old 02-02-2008, 03:23 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Whats the best submission to do on a larger person?

once in a while me and my cousin would grapple.
hes around 6'3 260lbs and im 5'5 about 160. I know he doesnt know anything about BJJ, and I never took BJJ classes yet but I guess I have basic knowledge on how to pull triangles, armbars etc. So what usually happens is he takes me down. I go for triangles but i barely can get my legs around him, so it isnt locked fully. He powers out of my armbars. So yeh eventually I get tried from doing all that and then he passes my guard and puts his weight on me till im done. so yeh I would like to submit him one of these times =)
I have the same ******* problem except I'm going up against guys who're 30-40 pounds heavier and a lot stronger, the only physical advantage I have is I'm the tallest and have the longest reach.

When we roll, they usually get me on my back really easily cause they just out power me and then put their weight on me and just muscle their way through.
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:20 AM   #26 (permalink)
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I talked about this a while ago in my training log, and it's something that requires a little bit of experience, more than anything. It wasn't like the Gracies were white belts when we saw them submitting other guys, but there are some basic things to help you out.

Here's my original advice:

Quote:
I was working with one of my older training partners (not like an old dude, he's in his late 30s) during BJJ class, and the guy is a retired vale tudo fighter from Brazil (he was mostly a standup guy, but he's good on the ground too) and he outweighs me by about 50-70 pounds (depending on where I am in competition preparation).

I realized, while I was working with him in my guard, that there is something really different about working with a guy bigger than you, as opposed to working in a weight classed fight, with an opponent your own size. Since some guys compete in open weight grappling, and stuggle alot with being a smaller guy as a fighter (I know that when I compete, I tend to be the smaller competitor, even if the weight difference isn't nearly that extreme).

The major difference doesn't change between MMA and submission grappling and BJJ, because the principles are the same. It's an issue of joint control.

Against a larger opponent, you have an issue with controlling whole limbs. In my personal experience, I can be going for an isolation move, like an armbar or a kimura, and my leverage won't be perfect and he'll power out of it. This is a really serious problem, partly because of the psychology and partly because you can give up a worse position.

I'm not going to make it sound like you need to do it in a traditional position-submission-sense, it's not that simple. Even a mounted armbar is hard to get on a strong opponent.

The trick, as I've personally found, is to play close to the body. Where as an opponent with your sized limbs will give up a strength advantage as long as you have moderate leverage, a much larger opponent will not. If you are sinking in a kimura on a guy your own size, it's pretty much done, but a larger opponent can punch out of it.

Playing close to the body doesn't mean sticking to chokes, but it means keeping your torso against his, or your side against his chest, in order to maintain a connection and keep your own balance. If you create distance, you are not doing anything for yourself except creating an opportunity to run away. That is not the intention.

Realistically, if you play in to the body you will make it easier to push through his center of gravity, instead of trying to use an outside sweep (like a scizzor sweep), this keeps him from having the opportunity to really use his weight as a prevention tool.

Another good trick I've found, and it's what set me up for the win last night, is to be aggressive. Big guys aren't always used to being attacked, and if you are attacking a submission wholeheartedly and he is resisting, he may make a mistake that gives you the opportunity to better your position or transition to a different technique. It's risky because if he doesn't make a mistake you are expending alot of energy, but, realistically, you are going to do that if you are fighting a bigger opponent.

The tricks that you use as far as set ups for sweeps or alternate submissions don't need to be complicated, just efficient. The one that I have found works really well for me, personally, is the kimura-to-hip-sweep transition. If an opponent, even a stronger one, is focused on getting out of that kimura, they may posture up to try and straighten the arm out forward. As soon as that happens, you are essentially set for the hip-sweep. That also works for a basic straight lapel choke from guard.

Hope that was helpful for all the small guys out there.
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:28 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by No1Brawler View Post
And i'll surely tap you out with my home taught skills buddy.
I'm sure you would!
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Old 02-04-2008, 12:33 AM   #28 (permalink)
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After reading through the thread, there seems to be an open debate about using the armbar as a way of submitting bigger guys, so I figure I'll throw my two cents in.

Everyone here seems to believe that there is a set form for setting up an armbar from the back position and that, frankly, is a load of bullsh*t. Even within Gracie Jiu-Jitsu there are dozens of schools of thought on the way to approach an armbar from the back. There are those who believe in open legs over crossed legs, those who believe in creating a perpendicular angle as opposed to going more over the head to attack the shoulder (which also gives for the opportunity to set up a triangle) and there are those who believe in attacking it with a kimura grip as opposed to a traditional "hook the tricept" grip, so I'd light to clear the air about any sort of traditional technique. There are about 20 different ways that I can think of to attack the armbar from that position. You want to talk about specific ones to use against the big man, then let's do that.

If you are attacking the armbar against an opponent who has a weight advantage, look at the way Nogueira did it against Bob Sapp and the way that Ikuhisa Minowa did it against Butterbean. There's alot to be said for a few definite technical necessities, but there's also alot to be said for a few tweaks that can adust your leverage to your advantage if your know how to take advantage of them.

For starters, you'll notice that Noguiera works the kimura grip to pull the arm lose. That keeps him from misadjusting his upper body to effectively use the leverage that he wants, and assures him that he is going to have control of that arm at all times. This, I've found, is very important against armbarring a larger opponent.

Secondly, staying perpendicular to the body will only prevent stacking if your legs are strong enough to push your opponent off of you. If your size issue is not so severe that this is the case, then that's fine, but that's not true for alot of us smaller guys, myself included. Going over the top, so that you have an angle closer to 45 degrees between his shoulder and his head allows for better shoulder manipulation and will prevent your opponent from using his pectoral muscles and back from muscling in. As I mentioned before, this also gives you a good triangle set up if he starts to try and roll you over so that he can take the top position and stack you.

Finally, if you intend to finish an opponent with an armbar it's important to control the wrist. The elbow and shoulder will follow as long as your hips are established and you have substantial wrist control. Against a big guy, this means you will need to have strong forearms, but most importantly it means that you will need to keep his hand facing up, so that you can lock down the submission. If you can't do that, then you are going to have to learn how to transition to an omoplata or a kimura effectively, otherwise you're in serious trouble.

Hope that clears some things up. If you've got issues or questions, let me know.
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Last edited by IronMan : 03-07-2008 at 12:23 AM.
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Old 02-05-2008, 02:14 PM   #29 (permalink)
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My personal opinion:

When the guy is bigger than you it's important to continually attack from the bottom. You've got to be able to think well ahead of your opponent and keep going from attack to attack until one keeps. This includes sweeps. If you want someone to give up their arm, make them post it for you by going for a sweep. But remember, commit to what you are doing. If you go for a sweep, go for it like you mean it! Only move to the next thing when it hasn't worked, but always assume that it will. Don't focus on just one thing, move from one thing to the next.
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Old 02-06-2008, 03:41 PM   #30 (permalink)
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rear naked choke cause your smaller you can get to their back quicker and if their unexperience they will have trouble getting you off
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