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post #31 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-19-2008, 09:26 PM
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I always submission wrestle with guys bigger than me and here's what I've discovered over time:

ALWAYS try to go for leg locks. If you try an armlock chances are the opponent may find a way to overpower it. Try a leglock or a chokehold with a body scissors. Occasionally even try a juji-gatame armbar. The point is to utilize your legs and work on the opponent's legs since more than likely the brute's strength is above his waist.
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post #32 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 01:43 AM
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I always submission wrestle with guys bigger than me and here's what I've discovered over time:

ALWAYS try to go for leg locks. If you try an armlock chances are the opponent may find a way to overpower it. Try a leglock or a chokehold with a body scissors. Occasionally even try a juji-gatame armbar. The point is to utilize your legs and work on the opponent's legs since more than likely the brute's strength is above his waist.
I disagree with this, and it may just be personal preference, but I find that even my best leglocks are really hard to use against a bigger opponent, because his legs are much bigger and most leglocks require some level of manipulation with the arms, which is nearly impossible against an opponent with powerful legs.

While they might be easier to pull out against an opponent, it's usually because they aren't as saavy with leglocks. (as many guys, like Robert Drysdale, have noted) The fact is, the only reason it worked on Lesnar is because Lesnar didn't see it coming, and basic leverage allows that to sink in easily.

The larger muscles are always below the ways: calves, thighs and quads > forearms, bicepts and tricepts. Hips > shoulders.

Control comes from using your lower body muscles (your legs) against your opponent's upper body muscles, along with leverage. That allows you to match strength with strength, while using leverage, which is much more effective.

Still, as far as a solid gameplan (and not just general theory, like what I'm throwing out here) I'll stick with what I've posted earlier in the thread.



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post #33 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 10:46 PM
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I'd say one of the best ways I've really submitted larger people is a reverse armbar. Pull an armbar, but instead you flip over. This way the floor helps your leverage and when they try and stand up (If your leg isnt over their other arm like it should be) you can arch your body more and possibly hurt them worse. This is, of course much easier to roll out of so make sure you do it fast and as tight as possible.


Also, never rule out leg submissions, youd be surprised how people let their legs go sometimes.
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post #34 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-20-2008, 10:48 PM
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I disagree with this, and it may just be personal preference, but I find that even my best leglocks are really hard to use against a bigger opponent, because his legs are much bigger and most leglocks require some level of manipulation with the arms, which is nearly impossible against an opponent with powerful legs.

While they might be easier to pull out against an opponent, it's usually because they aren't as saavy with leglocks. (as many guys, like Robert Drysdale, have noted) The fact is, the only reason it worked on Lesnar is because Lesnar didn't see it coming, and basic leverage allows that to sink in easily.

The larger muscles are always below the ways: calves, thighs and quads > forearms, bicepts and tricepts. Hips > shoulders.

Control comes from using your lower body muscles (your legs) against your opponent's upper body muscles, along with leverage. That allows you to match strength with strength, while using leverage, which is much more effective.

Still, as far as a solid gameplan (and not just general theory, like what I'm throwing out here) I'll stick with what I've posted earlier in the thread.
Not to nit pick, but if you're doing a good, deep knee bar you should just have to lock your arm around the heel and use your legs the rest of the way :\
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post #35 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 10:52 AM
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Not to nit pick, but if you're doing a good, deep knee bar you should just have to lock your arm around the heel and use your legs the rest of the way :\
A bigger opponent will roll his leg over and use the raw muscle in his quads to power through the submission before you even sink it in. While a kneebar can definitely work (as we saw with Frank Mir) a bigger opponent who knows it's coming will keep you from sinking it in, and that will present alot of problems.

If you get any submission in really deep, the fight is over. I don't think anyone will really argue with that. What I will say is that the chances of sinking in a submission are much lower against a much more powerful opponent, especially when you are not isolating and attacking smaller joints.



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post #36 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 01:23 PM
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my point exactly, the only time i got a full fledge arm bar on someone, it was after a good 5-10 minutes of slams, mounts, sidecontrol defenses, if your going against a bigger opponent, you gotta wear them out before a arm lock, but the rear naked choke always works
This is untrue.

You don't need to wear anyone down. You need proper technique.

I could bust Fedor's arm off his body with proper technique. And he's I'm sure much stronger then I am.

However, Chokes too work very effectively against those big bastards. It takes out any strength factor that might have been there.

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post #37 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 10:31 PM
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A bigger opponent will roll his leg over and use the raw muscle in his quads to power through the submission before you even sink it in. While a kneebar can definitely work (as we saw with Frank Mir) a bigger opponent who knows it's coming will keep you from sinking it in, and that will present alot of problems.

If you get any submission in really deep, the fight is over. I don't think anyone will really argue with that. What I will say is that the chances of sinking in a submission are much lower against a much more powerful opponent, especially when you are not isolating and attacking smaller joints.
You wouldnt really have to sink it completely to lock the leg in your arm is all I was saying. as soon as your arm wraps you can lock it up with your legs, and if they roll it you can get a heel hook or an achilles lock or wrap your legs and crank their ankle... I mean I agree they can power out of it, but its not just your arms that are doing the pulling against their legs. I Lock my arms and pull with my legs/back :\
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post #38 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-21-2008, 10:35 PM
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You wouldnt really have to sink it completely to lock the leg in your arm is all I was saying. as soon as your arm wraps you can lock it up with your legs, and if they roll it you can get a heel hook or an achilles lock or wrap your legs and crank their ankle... I mean I agree they can power out of it, but its not just your arms that are doing the pulling against their legs. I Lock my arms and pull with my legs/back :\
To get to the point where you'd be isolating the end of the leg to tuck it away is the hard part. If you get there, that's like taking away your opponent's balance for an armbar from the guard (or pulling the arm across and cinching up the triangle). The match is already over, unless you really screw something up.

If you miss the one attempt, going for an achilles lock or a heel hook isn't really that practical, as they will probably pop up and try to pound your face it. I would suggest rolling to the knees (hitting the deck, as I call it) and working for the top position by grabbing the legs or rolling back to guard.



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post #39 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-22-2008, 04:14 AM
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Are we talking abuot two different positions or just two really different levels of fighters? I'm talking about doing this in someones guard, not being in guard... I realize that it's a hell of a lot harder to isolate the leg in guard lol sorry for the confusion and making myself seem like an ass.
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post #40 of 40 (permalink) Old 02-23-2008, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
To get to the point where you'd be isolating the end of the leg to tuck it away is the hard part. If you get there, that's like taking away your opponent's balance for an armbar from the guard (or pulling the arm across and cinching up the triangle). The match is already over, unless you really screw something up.

If you miss the one attempt, going for an achilles lock or a heel hook isn't really that practical, as they will probably pop up and try to pound your face it. I would suggest rolling to the knees (hitting the deck, as I call it) and working for the top position by grabbing the legs or rolling back to guard.
Hey, I was wondering how the hell he could get him down with the size difference? I am 6'4" 247lbs and my cousin spars with me sometimes because hes faster and I work on cutting him off and conditioning mostly. Hes 5'7" 155lbs, and I cannot imagine this guy possibly taking me down. The strength difference is insane, just to throw out numbers I benchpress 315lbs, he benchpresses 145lbs. I would say im slightly more than twice as strong as him. Even if he got a good shoot on me, I dont see him being strong enough to trip me down. I mean maybe if he trained in judo and used my own leverage against me. But im more of a striker with 80" of reach I wouldnt do alot to give him the chance.



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