Back to Basics - Page 17 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
Grappling Technique Grappling discussion area.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #161 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-12-2009, 01:27 AM
Zei
MMA Fanatic
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 11
 
I've got a very basic question..

When you're in someone's guard, or if you're mounting them, should you keep it close, or should you try and sit up?

And if someone is in a high mount on you, do you get out by shrimping and then putting your legs around them to get them into your guard/half-guard?
Zei is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #162 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-15-2009, 03:27 AM
MMA Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 21
         
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Do you want to know how to get to the X-Guard? From what positions (sounded like you wanted the transition from the Butterfly Guard, so I'll post something on those transitions, if you want)

Do you want to know how to sweep people from the X-Guard?

Do you want to know how to submit people from the X-Guard?

Also, do you have a preference as far as no-gi or gi? The techniques do change a little bit without the grips.

Sorry for not being more detailed. Im mainly intrested in tranitioning between X guard and butterfly as well as sweeping from X guard
bebe is offline  
post #163 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-15-2009, 12:30 PM Thread Starter
True Grappler
 
IronMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New York City, New York
Posts: 6,222
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by 16volts View Post
what would you say are some basic submissions that every grappler, should have under their belt and the various different ways and positions its possible to pull off these submissions?
That's a pretty non-specific question.

As far as great submissions that are very effective and very basics, here's a list of ones I've already gone over (either in this thread, or in other places on the forum).

From the guard:

Kimura
Armbar

From the top:

Americana
Armbar (described here from the hammerlock)

Narrow down your question and I'll address techniques specifically, but I really don't have the time to go through ten or fifteen submissions that should be taught at the whitebelt level, at least not all at once.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Zei View Post
I've got a very basic question..

When you're in someone's guard, or if you're mounting them, should you keep it close, or should you try and sit up?
This is an issue of personal preference.

The MMA dictum is to stay postured in both the mount and the guard to throw bombs (or, at least, in my opinion, it should be). The traditional Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu dictum is also to stay postured up.

As a guy with a very traditional Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu game when it comes to passing the guard and establishing the mount, I tend to stay postured.

My thought process is like this:
  1. It's much harder to attack a postured opponent in your guard.
  2. With the gi on, it's very dangerous to let your opponent pull you close, as they have a lot of control
  3. From the mount, it's very easy to get rolled if you don't have good posture.
  4. From the guard, you give up a lot of passes when you can't use your knees to attack the legs.
  5. It's very easy to give up your posture. It's very difficult to get it back.

Those are just a few thoughts on why it's good to posture up. Of course, there are times when it's good to give up posture in the mount (there are really no times when it's a good idea to give up posture in the guard, unless you have control of your opponents legs and are looking to pass, and even then it's important to have a certain level of posture.

In the mount, if you're attempting gi chokes or trying to pry your opponents arms up, you may choose to drop your weight down, but remember to keep your weight on your hips, and don't apply too much pressure to the chest. That's how you get swept.


Quote:
And if someone is in a high mount on you, do you get out by shrimping and then putting your legs around them to get them into your guard/half-guard?
It's going to be very difficult to escape a high mount this way.

Of course, it's very difficult to escape a high mount in general. The best way, from my experience, is to try and work them down onto your hips and look for an upa (buck and roll).

Shrimping does work, especially in gi grappling, to get back to the guard. However, if the mount is high, it's going to be very difficult to move their leg the distance that you need to in order to retain the half-guard.


Quote:
Originally Posted by bebe View Post
Im mainly intrested in tranitioning between X guard and butterfly as well as sweeping from X guard
O.K.

So one of the reasons why the transition from the butterfly guard is so effective is because it comes out of a very traditional way that people try to escape the tight butterfly guard.

Lots of guys will try and step up with one leg (sumo step, as it's often called) and stuff your leg through. This position presents a huge problem for a lot of people, because the butterfly hook really isn't as useful when the leverage is gone and you're only working off of one leg.

When your opponent tries to turn to sumo step, you can get the x-guard easily by turning so that the leg that is posted is right in front of you. Then you swing your other leg from the butterfly hook on the other leg, through so that your legs make an x against the inside of his thigh.



At this point, it's important to quickly establish grips on his legs.

In gi, grab the pantleg right at the calf or ankle (the lower you grab, the better the leverage, but if he's good at breaking grips, it'll be easier for him to escape).

In no-gi, grab the ankles.

From here you have a lot of sweeps.

The one I go to the most is just to pull the controlled leg towards my butt as I push with my legs against it. This will bend the leg at the knee at an odd angle, and force your opponent to put his ass on the ground. If you have a tight x-guard, it's very, very difficult to block this sweep.

When you get this sweep, don't give up the control of his legs. Use the pressure of your legs on his thigh to establish control and get the pass (or transition to a submission once you get the points for a sweep, as there are a few submissions from this spot).

The other move that seems to be very popular for gi is to turn under him so that you're behind him, grab his belt and use the hooks to force his butt to the mat, taking control of the back.

Hopefully that was helpful.



Sig by Toxic

Barnett - Toquinho -Werdum - "Nurmie"
Z. Gurgel - Morango - Rocha - Tiequan
IronMan is offline  
post #164 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-18-2009, 01:37 AM
MMA Fanatic
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 21
         
Ironman, thanks for the long and informative reply
bebe is offline  
post #165 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-23-2009, 01:10 PM Thread Starter
True Grappler
 
IronMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New York City, New York
Posts: 6,222
                     
Post Some Damn Questions

I'm going to make a project out of going to the first post and indexing the first ten or so pages of this thread as far as advice, but in the meantime, feel free to post questions, guys.



Sig by Toxic

Barnett - Toquinho -Werdum - "Nurmie"
Z. Gurgel - Morango - Rocha - Tiequan
IronMan is offline  
post #166 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-23-2009, 03:54 PM
Lightweight
 
Freelancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,658
                     
Here's a damn question:

How do you handle heavier opponents in your guard? Specifically, if they grab a hold of your upper body and hug you, squeeze you and call you George and thus preventing you from breathing normally?

I know this doesn't have much to do with the specific techniques, but hey, you wanted a question.

"He who defeats himself is the mightiest warrior" - Confucius(I think)
Freelancer is offline  
post #167 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-23-2009, 04:14 PM Thread Starter
True Grappler
 
IronMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New York City, New York
Posts: 6,222
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
How do you handle heavier opponents in your guard? Specifically, if they grab a hold of your upper body and hug you, squeeze you and call you George and thus preventing you from breathing normally?
I'm not entirely sure how being called George prevents you from breathing normally, but there are a few ways to deal with the size advantage off of your back.

The first is to work the guard high, so that your legs are in their armpits, and then start to attack from there. It's very easy to break your opponent down once you have the guard that high, as you can usually control their body with your knees. Don't let them posture up, as nice as it might seem to have them off of your chest. Keep them broken down and start to attack sweeps and submissions.

If you can't control their body and they continue to hold you, pummel. Try and get underhooks and hold onto them. From this position, there are a lot of attacks.

You can transition to butterfly guard and look for sweeps.

You can get on your hip (which should be pretty easy once you get the underhooks) and start looking to take the back.

You can work a handful of sweeps and (in gi) straight collar chokes.

When I see a lot of people get flattened out, especially by bigger guys, they try and sit up into their opponent. That's a waste of energy, especially against a guy who's just flattening you out.

Personally, I prefer to go under him. Try to get those underhooks or try to grab a pantleg or ankle and attempt the sweep. This change in leverage should take the weight off and open up your breathing.


Quote:
I know this doesn't have much to do with the specific techniques, but hey, you wanted a question.
That's fine. I don't mind answering questions about using positions. Sometimes that's more helpful than adding techniques.



Sig by Toxic

Barnett - Toquinho -Werdum - "Nurmie"
Z. Gurgel - Morango - Rocha - Tiequan
IronMan is offline  
post #168 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-23-2009, 04:29 PM
Lightweight
 
Freelancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,658
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
I'm not entirely sure how being called George prevents you from breathing normally, but there are a few ways to deal with the size advantage off of your back.

The first is to work the guard high, so that your legs are in their armpits, and then start to attack from there. It's very easy to break your opponent down once you have the guard that high, as you can usually control their body with your knees. Don't let them posture up, as nice as it might seem to have them off of your chest. Keep them broken down and start to attack sweeps and submissions.

If you can't control their body and they continue to hold you, pummel. Try and get underhooks and hold onto them. From this position, there are a lot of attacks.

You can transition to butterfly guard and look for sweeps.

You can get on your hip (which should be pretty easy once you get the underhooks) and start looking to take the back.

You can work a handful of sweeps and (in gi) straight collar chokes.

When I see a lot of people get flattened out, especially by bigger guys, they try and sit up into their opponent. That's a waste of energy, especially against a guy who's just flattening you out.

Personally, I prefer to go under him. Try to get those underhooks or try to grab a pantleg or ankle and attempt the sweep. This change in leverage should take the weight off and open up your breathing.




That's fine. I don't mind answering questions about using positions. Sometimes that's more helpful than adding techniques.
That was very informative but unfortunately my arsenal of bottom techniques is somewhat limited.

I don't like working with much bigger guys because I always have a problem if they grab a hold of me and smother me with their weight. What I do is grab a kimura just to lessen the pressure since I can't finish them from the guard(judo rules), and I twist it to ultimately turn them on their back or something else. But I intend to learn some setups for triangle and armbar that will help me this year.

"He who defeats himself is the mightiest warrior" - Confucius(I think)
Freelancer is offline  
post #169 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-23-2009, 05:46 PM Thread Starter
True Grappler
 
IronMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: New York City, New York
Posts: 6,222
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
I don't like working with much bigger guys because I always have a problem if they grab a hold of me and smother me with their weight. What I do is grab a kimura just to lessen the pressure since I can't finish them from the guard(judo rules), and I twist it to ultimately turn them on their back or something else. But I intend to learn some setups for triangle and armbar that will help me this year.
I submit guys from the guard in judo all the time.

Admittedly, I play open guard because a closed guard will get you stood up really quickly in a judo match, but using things like collar chokes has been really effective for my submission game in the guard in judo.

I really recommend, for judo guys, learning to transition and effectively use the butterfly guard. It's an excellent position with a lot of ways to reverse your opponent and score the submission.



Sig by Toxic

Barnett - Toquinho -Werdum - "Nurmie"
Z. Gurgel - Morango - Rocha - Tiequan
IronMan is offline  
post #170 of 231 (permalink) Old 08-23-2009, 07:17 PM
Lightweight
 
Freelancer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,658
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
I submit guys from the guard in judo all the time.

Admittedly, I play open guard because a closed guard will get you stood up really quickly in a judo match, but using things like collar chokes has been really effective for my submission game in the guard in judo.

I really recommend, for judo guys, learning to transition and effectively use the butterfly guard. It's an excellent position with a lot of ways to reverse your opponent and score the submission.
I submit guys from the guard a lot too. I know decent number of moves from the guard, but I lack decent setups. So I improvise a lot, which I don't like, I always want to know what I'm doing. The thing is, all that I have learned from the guard, I learned on the net because as you know bottom game isn't really appreciated in judo. So I learned moves but no setups.

So I wanted to know how to control bigger guys, because when i finish the ground sparring with them my endurance is zero. High guard is the best advice it seems.

Tell me how do you grip their gi while we are at it?

"He who defeats himself is the mightiest warrior" - Confucius(I think)
Freelancer is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome