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post #181 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-07-2009, 02:54 PM
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also it is extremely important to keep the head off the ground, cause if you are hit, your heads got nowhere to go. i'd highly recommend joining a gym though
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post #182 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-09-2009, 04:37 PM
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Body triangle with a guillotine style hold (not submission or you'll wear yourself out).

That is pretty generic advice as you haven't really stated if this is for MMA competition or self defense and if your goal is to advance your position or simply to tie up your opponent.

Robber guard is also nice for avoiding damage AND for advancing your position. Rubber guard is like a roundhouse kick. Easy to learn, lifetime to master. Find a good coach/instructor!
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post #183 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-10-2009, 12:08 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by -Jesus- View Post
Alright, When you are in bottom guard. What's the proper hold to avoid them from raining blows? or standing up.

Also, same as in full guard. Do I hold double under hooks? or hold around the head and arms?

Thanks.
This is a personal preference thing. I suggest experimenting with a lot of different grips. There are a few standard grips, though.
  1. Both hands behind the head.
  2. One hand on the back of the head, one hand on the arm.
  3. Both hands on one arm.
  4. One overhook, one underhook.
  5. Double underhooks.
  6. One arm free, the other hooking under the opponent's knee.
I can get into attacks from any of these if you want. Still, play around with them. Developing a good guard is about finding what works for your body type, flexibility, mindset and personal level of comfort. There's no single answer.



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post #184 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-13-2009, 11:00 PM
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Hello IronMan,

I was just wondering, if you can give me some ideas on Butterfly Submissions and Sweeps. Myself, i only know the cutting armbar and basic sweeps from Butterfly.

Would appreciate your insight.

AJ

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post #185 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 01:51 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by adamjjrwarrior View Post
Hello IronMan,

I was just wondering, if you can give me some ideas on Butterfly Submissions and Sweeps. Myself, i only know the cutting armbar and basic sweeps from Butterfly.

Would appreciate your insight.

AJ
The best tome of knowledge on the butterfly (and I'll start with this note because I was talking about it with a friend the other day) is Marcelo Garcia's book on the X-Guard. All of the things I'm talking about are in there, as the first two chapters are on the butterfly and the X-Guard flows best off of the butterfly guard.

I'm assuming that by butterfly sweeps you mean you know the over-under sweep where you lift your opponent's weight onto your shins, drop your ear to the mat and toss them over. That's the most basic and fundamental attack from the butterfly.

Guillotines from the butterfly move really well into other stuff. Basically, working to push the head down is very effective. I'd definitely (as far as submissions go) work darse chokes and guillotines.

The best submission, and the only one of these I finish from the butterfly guard, is the Chris Brennan version of the ten finger guillotine.

Basically, push your opponents head down with one hand, and cup your other hand on the chin. Then, drop your chest onto the top of your opponents head and grab your other hand with the guillotine grip. You can finish from the butterfly. Obviously, the closed guard offers the most stability.

As far as sweeps (and this is really the technical part of the butterfly guard game), there are a lot of ways to attack your opponents balance. Most of them center around that over-under sweep I mentioned at the beginning.

If you go for that sweep, chances are good your opponent will sit back. The defense for most beginner and intermediate students is to get the weight off of the legs, so that there's no real power in the sweep.

At this point, I slip one foot out of the butterfly guard and drag the arm of whatever side I just popped the foot out on (usually, for me, that's on the left side, since I drag the arm with my right hand). At this point, I use my other butterfly hook to establish a hook that will be the first for taking the back. That's a good way to get four points. From that point, it's like working a standard half-guard move to the back, or any other armdrag.

More advanced guys will try what is undoubtedly a more advanced maneuver. They'll stand up.

I don't personally think this is more effective. Personally, I've found that smashing my head down (protecting the neck) to crush their ability to sit up, which is important, and pushing a leg under me is the most effective way to pass the butterfly, especially with the invention of the X Guard.

If your opponent stands up, the techniques are really about experience, and feeling your opponent. Still, the idea is pretty simple:

Take you shin and put it against your opponents leg at about the knee (though you can be higher or lower a little bit depending on your preference), grab them at the ankle, and try to bend the leg like a bow, rolling into it and popping up to take top position. This is a really simplified version of the most basic X Guard attacks (simplified in the sense that it doesn't require controlling the X Guard with both feet).

With practice, you'll find this works really well. It's just about practicing the angles.



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post #186 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 02:20 AM
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Yeah mate over under sweep... with the over under sweep, if you have a hold of an arm, and you sweep them, you will end up on mount with an arm, is there a certain attack that you prefer if you have that arm... and also i have trouble taking the back from butterfly. i got told by one of the fellas from training butterfly guard is one of the best things to know... i have a whole lot of marcelo garcia vids but yeah the book i was looking into but i havent come around to it yet, money is tight... anyways thanks for your insight.

>iRoll<
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post #187 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 12:44 PM Thread Starter
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Yeah mate over under sweep... with the over under sweep, if you have a hold of an arm, and you sweep them, you will end up on mount with an arm, is there a certain attack that you prefer if you have that arm...
Yeah. Personally, I transition to the side control from that position, because I'm more comfortable in the side control than the mount (it's very easy to get rolled by experienced grapplers from the mount, and I tend to just end up back in full guard if I take any weight off to attempt an armbar.

From side control, my weighting is much better and I rarely get swept.

From the mount and the side control, though, the attack is the same: Keep the arm tucked against your ribs so you have great control, pop your legs over the head and take an armbar.

From the side control I have a half dozen attacks from there (and I don't mind getting into them, but only if you want me to), but from the mount, I rarely need more than the armbar, especially if they go for an upa, because that really makes it easy to sink in the armbar.


Quote:
and also i have trouble taking the back from butterfly. i got told by one of the fellas from training butterfly guard is one of the best things to know... i have a whole lot of marcelo garcia vids but yeah the book i was looking into but i havent come around to it yet, money is tight... anyways thanks for your insight.
Yeah, practice the armdrag.

Have an opponent on their knees and practice popping your foot out from the butterfly guard, using your cross hand to pull their arm to the mat, reaching around to their back and hooking under their opposite side arm (this hook is amazingly helpful in securing the back).

Practicing this drag is everything.

I also practice the armdrag from standing, but it's a little different than off of your back (or, more accurately, off of your butt, which is where you should be in the butterfly guard). Still, it'll help you develop the tricepts and back muscles required for powerful armdrags.



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post #188 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 09:13 PM
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
This is a personal preference thing. I suggest experimenting with a lot of different grips. There are a few standard grips, though.
  1. Both hands behind the head.
  2. One hand on the back of the head, one hand on the arm.
  3. Both hands on one arm.
  4. One overhook, one underhook.
  5. Double underhooks.
  6. One arm free, the other hooking under the opponent's knee.
I can get into attacks from any of these if you want. Still, play around with them. Developing a good guard is about finding what works for your body type, flexibility, mindset and personal level of comfort. There's no single answer.
#3, What do you mean both hands on one arm?
As in, Shrimping out and crossing to that one arm so the other one can't reach over?

because, I can see someone raining down on me if i'm holding one arm.
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post #189 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 09:23 PM Thread Starter
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#3, What do you mean both hands on one arm?
As in, Shrimping out and crossing to that one arm so the other one can't reach over?

because, I can see someone raining down on me if i'm holding one arm.
If you control one arm with the cross hand on the wrist, the same side hand on the tricept. If he tries to rain down from that position, working the high guard makes for a very easy armbar.

You might get hit once or twice if the guy is dumb, but you'll get the submission. If he's smart, he'll try and pop the arm out and you can adjust and start working for a sweep.



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post #190 of 231 (permalink) Old 09-14-2009, 09:57 PM
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Ah, That would make sense. I'm always going into high guard unless I'm going for a Kiruma.. Thanks, That's very useful.

Also, This could set up a Gogoplata Am i right?
Pulling the arm down(Tricept), and Shrimping, and pulling leg over?
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