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The Don · 06-18-2006, 11:22 AM

ok I did have them backwards both are still hard for there respective styles they have flaws against most other forms of grappling.

**IronMan** · 06-27-2006, 11:15 PM

Yeah, I guess I had them backwards too.

**Onganju** · 06-29-2006, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The Don

Greco-Roman, Mainly since it started in Greece and was later adopted by the Romans do have alot of upper body stuff similar slightly to judo and does have some ground stuff but it mainly involves trying to pin someone which is usless in a real fight

Wow... I can't believe you said that.

Actually, from my own experience (and from feedback from a lot of BJJ guys who roll on a regular basis) the main strengths of a lot of Amateur Wrestlers (Greco-Roman, Freestyle, Folkstyle/Collegiate) is comprised of 3 things:

1) Takedowns: Lots of trained takedown skills and takedown defense.
2) Riding and control ability ("trying to pin someone" as you would say).
3) Endurance and strength.

A lot of the guys that I've rolled with, have always mentioned that rolling with a guy who has wrestled seriously for an extended period of time is just a hell of an ordeal. Usually guys that keep up with their wrestling tend to always be in some sort of shape, usually better than a lot of guys who just limit their training to just 90 minutes a day, 3 days a week. These are guys who are used to training 2.5 hours a day, 5 days out of the week and it makes a huge difference.

The other thing that's always noted, is that staying upright and getting a wrestler off of you can be a bitch to deal with. Takedowns are a given, and can be brutal. What really sucks is getting rode out for 5 to 12 minutes where you aren't given a lot of breathing room or opportunities to sweep, all the while you're burning loads of energy. This is where a lot of wrestlers shine, the greatest example of which was Gracie vs Hughes. Once Matt had him down, he wasn't going to let Royce back up.

Now, a lot of wrestlers tend to do a lot of things that don't make too much sense in submissions. A lot of times they tend to forget where their arms, legs, or head is at which just baits submissions. The other bad habit that they have is that they tend to be all to eager to roll up on their stomache and give thier back (which is normally suicidal in submissions).

However, good wrestlers that are familiar with submissions are just dangerous guys. Good examples can be seen in Dave Terell vs Evan Tanner, Quinton Jackson vs Ricardo Arona, and (as mentioned before) Mat Hughes vs Royce Gracie. Once they got the BJJ guy on their back, they rode them out while punishing them, quickly adjusting to their movements while pounding away.

The truth is that in a real fight, if you're the guy on the bottom you're at a grave disadvantage. Where BJJ is so good, is that it allows you to attack from the bottom. What I think is even better about BJJ: It teaches you to move to a better position first before you attack. Sure being able to submit from the ground is good... But being able to sweep and then submit or attack from a dominant position is even better.

**IronMan** · 06-30-2006, 01:13 PM

I'm not saying I ever fought a Greco guy as good as Rampage or Hughes, but I've never had a guy get a mount in a fight. I guess the big factor with these two guys is the strength factor, as well as the takedown skill.

Tanner is a freestyle fighter, so I don't know about his wrestling.

**Onganju** · 06-30-2006, 07:46 PM

Tanner has trained with Team Quest (he was one of the founding members) before he broke from them. His wrestling is very good. When he got out of the Guillotine attempt from Dave Terell even though he wasn't able to establish full mount on him, Dave couldn't get him back into guard, nor was he ever given a chance to get back up. Evan pretty much rode him out and pounded away on him.

TheSuplexor · 06-30-2006, 10:13 PM

Wrestling is a good base with takedowns, riding and pinning, escapes, and strength and endurance but it just lacks finishing moves that other styles have. I would think that wrestling and bjj would be great to cross train in because they help with the others weaknesses in a real fight.

The Don · 07-01-2006, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onganju

Wow... I can't believe you said that.

Actually, from my own experience (and from feedback from a lot of BJJ guys who roll on a regular basis) the main strengths of a lot of Amateur Wrestlers (Greco-Roman, Freestyle, Folkstyle/Collegiate) is comprised of 3 things:

1) Takedowns: Lots of trained takedown skills and takedown defense.
2) Riding and control ability ("trying to pin someone" as you would say).
3) Endurance and strength.

A lot of the guys that I've rolled with, have always mentioned that rolling with a guy who has wrestled seriously for an extended period of time is just a hell of an ordeal. Usually guys that keep up with their wrestling tend to always be in some sort of shape, usually better than a lot of guys who just limit their training to just 90 minutes a day, 3 days a week. These are guys who are used to training 2.5 hours a day, 5 days out of the week and it makes a huge difference.

The other thing that's always noted, is that staying upright and getting a wrestler off of you can be a bitch to deal with. Takedowns are a given, and can be brutal. What really sucks is getting rode out for 5 to 12 minutes where you aren't given a lot of breathing room or opportunities to sweep, all the while you're burning loads of energy. This is where a lot of wrestlers shine, the greatest example of which was Gracie vs Hughes. Once Matt had him down, he wasn't going to let Royce back up.

Now, a lot of wrestlers tend to do a lot of things that don't make too much sense in submissions. A lot of times they tend to forget where their arms, legs, or head is at which just baits submissions. The other bad habit that they have is that they tend to be all to eager to roll up on their stomache and give thier back (which is normally suicidal in submissions).

However, good wrestlers that are familiar with submissions are just dangerous guys. Good examples can be seen in Dave Terell vs Evan Tanner, Quinton Jackson vs Ricardo Arona, and (as mentioned before) Mat Hughes vs Royce Gracie. Once they got the BJJ guy on their back, they rode them out while punishing them, quickly adjusting to their movements while pounding away.

The truth is that in a real fight, if you're the guy on the bottom you're at a grave disadvantage. Where BJJ is so good, is that it allows you to attack from the bottom. What I think is even better about BJJ: It teaches you to move to a better position first before you attack. Sure being able to submit from the ground is good... But being able to sweep and then submit or attack from a dominant position is even better.

Hmmm Guess I never looked at it from that point of view. Best wrestler of that style went to the states a few times but I owned him.. So I guess I had a bad representation of it.. but I can see what you mean and it makes sense. just in the past I never had a problem defeating a wrestling guy, espically if that was all they knew. now I did not always beat them quickly but when it was over there was no question they lost.

**Onganju** · 07-05-2006, 07:32 PM

Oh of course... If all they know is wrestling, then they will lose to a submissions person. I remember reading Gene LeBell's book when he mentioned that he was training an Olympic medalist to enter the UFC (I believe it was Kevin Jackson going against Frank Shamrock). When he started drilling him in submissions, he was told "I don't need that sh*t.." Well, Gene didn't push on it and still ended up working his corner that night.

Jackson lost via armbar out of a double-leg in 16 seconds. After which Gene asked him if he wanted to keep the stopwatch he used to time the fight.

I remember after I began teaching my 2nd nephew a few techniques, he rolled with his buddy (competitive amateur wrestler for 4 years, outweighed him by 35 pounds) and tapped him via an armbar after he took him up on a challenge. Most wrestlers are bait for submissions if they haven't trained to become familiar with the style. Those who have crossed trained, well they're a different story.

The Don · 07-06-2006, 11:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Onganju

Oh of course... If all they know is wrestling, then they will lose to a submissions person. I remember reading Gene LeBell's book when he mentioned that he was training an Olympic medalist to enter the UFC (I believe it was Kevin Jackson going against Frank Shamrock). When he started drilling him in submissions, he was told "I don't need that sh*t.." Well, Gene didn't push on it and still ended up working his corner that night.

Jackson lost via armbar out of a double-leg in 16 seconds. After which Gene asked him if he wanted to keep the stopwatch he used to time the fight.

I remember after I began teaching my 2nd nephew a few techniques, he rolled with his buddy (competitive amateur wrestler for 4 years, outweighed him by 35 pounds) and tapped him via an armbar after he took him up on a challenge. Most wrestlers are bait for submissions if they haven't trained to become familiar with the style. Those who have crossed trained, well they're a different story.

yea I can totally see that

**IronMan** · 07-06-2006, 02:10 PM

Everything in MMA has to be taken at face value, especially wrestling. Hughes/Gracie was just another example of why you can't only know one martial art any more.

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