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Old 12-15-2006, 09:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astro2
How do you do that cool quoting of parts?

Some clarifications.

When I said that you shouldn't lock your opponent, because you lock yourself I meant this. When you grab a good hold of your opponent from the bottom, then simultaneously you lock your own position. When you are in the bottom you don't want to stay there, you want to get out. You want to create space, get in a knee, get away. If you just hold on tightly then you give the guy on the top what he wants, control. You have to get his weight off, you have to get yourself in a better position for leverage. This is not done if you hold him, in any way. You should be pushing away from him, until you are in a spot where you once again can attack him and get control of him instead, that's the time to start locking him and holding him, when you are free to get control.

"It actually looks eerily similar to the arm-bar attempts that I was mentioning. Does this give you his back?"

"
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Establish a good position. One good position is placing one of your forearms against his throat and the other forearm against his hip. Now you have something to push away from and something to spin against. You should try to get one of your knees under your opponent, play around with the space and be sure to bother his throat when you push out. Be careful with your arms and keep your elbows tucked in to your body most of the time. This is so your arms dont get caught and so you have good leverage and position. If you successfully put a knee under his body, then you should know use this leg and knee to spin around even more, you can now with your throat-hand push on his shoulder or head, and you should try to spin so that you can hook your other leg inside his thigh. Then you pull out your first knee and bring it around the guy.

This sounds like an interesting approach. I haven't thought of it, but I'l try it out the next time I get on the mat. It actually looks eerily similar to the arm-bar attempts that I was mentioning. Does this give you his back?"

No this does not give you his back, this pulls your opponent into your guard. In the starting position he is chest on your chest. You are trying to rotate underneath him, and getting him in between your legs, by first getting one knee under his body, then you continue rotating till you have both your legs around him, still lying on your back, and that is the guard.

Going for the back is not much you can hope for if you are having trouble escaping, especially since using the above forearm on his throat, you don't have the underhook needed to circle to his back. You could switch midway, go for the halfguard, and then the underhook and go for the back, but there are many details to that move that I wont cover now.

"While I don't usually try to do anything that can get my face crushed, like bridging without first controlling my opponents arms, I am not big on BJJ competition, so I don't really know."

Well I can't talk for much more than pure gi-BJJ. With punches you have a more complex game. But considering it being a side control, getting just one knee in should make plenty of distance to avoid punches enough. And an opponent will have a hard time landing punches and even elbows if he is very flat on your chest, so when he goes for the punishment, you will have space and you might accept perhaps a 50%-blow somewhere on your head, until you get half or full-guard and either lock one or both of his arms, or being in a fullguard you have greater control of the distance between you and you can hit him better than he can you, if you keep his weight off you.

"This is an interesting bit of gi grappling and I like the idea of controlling the arm. The idea of pushing his arm away might be difficult being on the bottom unless you are stronger then your opponent, which you cannot always count on."

It's actually not as much depending on strength as it is on the right moment to do it, once you have his elbow and he is facing away from you, you have very very good leverage on him, and you might even get the back from this. But the leverage here is him being very low on your chest, facing away and not having your arm trapped. The counter against this escape-technique is of course getting very high on your opponents chest, locking his arms behind your back, and virtually without anything interesting to do with his arms. Then you play for the mount.


"Yeah, give him your back. I may not be a master at BJJ, but even I can tell you that's not a good idea. I guess that's why it's a last resort, though."

The point of this idea is to explore all your options, sometimes you are able to instead of getting one knee inside of his body, you move your body very far away from him by circling and you might be able to go to your side and then roll over to your back, by switching your hip in a scissorlike manner, and then immidiately get on your knees. From the knees, even if he is on top of you, you have very good movement freedom and power. It's a more powerful position than most people realise, but since your head might be looking against the floor you need good sensitivity and awareness of what's going on with your opponent. There are plenty of takedowns you can do from here and you can for example pull guard, go for an omo plata, go for the back and lots of other things, depending on what your opponent does. What you are looking for most basically from this turtle position is to keep him in front of you, dont let him circle around your body, so grab what you can.


"Yeah, the layngay strategy is both boring and gets point deductions in BJJ competition. If he was talking about competing, which I doubt he was with being new to BJJ, then I apologize. I'm not a BJJ competitor."

Well I thougth that even though he is not talking about competition now, eventually he will compete in BJJ as I think most people that are serious want to. And even in his training at the club, BJJ rules apply and if someone is just lying and holding, it doesn't give any of them that very much, so either the two people sparring or the instructor should decide to switch positions. But then again who am I to say from which positions you learn alot, if you are lying down extremely controlled by your opponent you at least learn that you can be controlled if you get here, and it might be an incentive to be wary of the position and rolling up to all fours before your opponent has you in total control. Eg, roll up when you feel that he is passing your guard.


you guys are making me read WAY too much...
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Old 12-16-2006, 02:10 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astro2
When I said that you shouldn't lock your opponent, because you lock yourself I meant this. When you grab a good hold of your opponent from the bottom, then simultaneously you lock your own position. When you are in the bottom you don't want to stay there, you want to get out. You want to create space, get in a knee, get away. If you just hold on tightly then you give the guy on the top what he wants, control. You have to get his weight off, you have to get yourself in a better position for leverage. This is not done if you hold him, in any way. You should be pushing away from him, until you are in a spot where you once again can attack him and get control of him instead, that's the time to start locking him and holding him, when you are free to get control.
I'm reading a few little things here. First, I don't mean just locking down my opponent and locking our positions, what I'm talking about is taking control of his arms so that I don't get pounded in the middle of my technique.

You are trying to creat distance by getting a knee in, the biggest problem with this in a street fight (not in BJJ competition) or MMA is that when you create an amount of distance like that you are still in a compromised position (where you can both get punched) and he is on the top, which gives him a definitive advantage. I don't want to do that, but that's just me.

What I suggest instead is closing the distance. It's a personal thing that I have, because it's much harder for an opponent to strike me when I am in control of his body in a tight, clinch-style hold. It is, however, equally easy for me to control his body, or his limbs depending on the position, so that I can get leverage and better my own situation.


No this does not give you his back, this pulls your opponent into your guard. In the starting position he is chest on your chest. You are trying to rotate underneath him, and getting him in between your legs, by first getting one knee under his body, then you continue rotating till you have both your legs around him, still lying on your back, and that is the guard.

My mistake, I thought what you were talking about was a full back roll while slipping in the first leg hook/part of body triangle and taking his back rolling over his should, which is just an extension of the armbar I was talking about. Still, good stuff.

Quote:
Well I can't talk for much more than pure gi-BJJ. With punches you have a more complex game. But considering it being a side control, getting just one knee in should make plenty of distance to avoid punches enough. And an opponent will have a hard time landing punches and even elbows if he is very flat on your chest, so when he goes for the punishment, you will have space and you might accept perhaps a 50%-blow somewhere on your head, until you get half or full-guard and either lock one or both of his arms, or being in a fullguard you have greater control of the distance between you and you can hit him better than he can you, if you keep his weight off you.
This is where I don't really understand your logic.

If I seperate our bodies with my knee so that his chest is now above my chest then he has excellent leverage for punches and a very good position for a basic hammer-fist.

While he is lying on my chest it is actually pretty awkward for him to try and hammer-fist or straight-punch, so what he'll probably do (if he's smart) is go for short elbows.

My issue is that the time you are giving your opponent while you: slip in your knee - push your opponent away - rotate your body - twist your hips - put your legs into position for guard, is more than enough time for a competent grappler to land a few shots. If any of these shots land with any force, it might not be too pretty.


Quote:
It's actually not as much depending on strength as it is on the right moment to do it, once you have his elbow and he is facing away from you, you have very very good leverage on him, and you might even get the back from this. But the leverage here is him being very low on your chest, facing away and not having your arm trapped. The counter against this escape-technique is of course getting very high on your opponents chest, locking his arms behind your back, and virtually without anything interesting to do with his arms. Then you play for the mount.
OK, I just misunderstood what you were saying.

Quote:
The point of this idea is to explore all your options, sometimes you are able to instead of getting one knee inside of his body, you move your body very far away from him by circling and you might be able to go to your side and then roll over to your back, by switching your hip in a scissorlike manner, and then immidiately get on your knees. From the knees, even if he is on top of you, you have very good movement freedom and power. It's a more powerful position than most people realise, but since your head might be looking against the floor you need good sensitivity and awareness of what's going on with your opponent. There are plenty of takedowns you can do from here and you can for example pull guard, go for an omo plata, go for the back and lots of other things, depending on what your opponent does. What you are looking for most basically from this turtle position is to keep him in front of you, dont let him circle around your body, so grab what you can.
I understand that, from a wrestling standpoing, your knees are a good position to be. I have issues with trying to get there against an intelligent opponent because it is, again, a very compromised position. In a sport where striking is not allowed then I understand the logic but in a street fight there are few main worries like strikes to the body, elbows to the back and crown of the head and a handful of other strikes that you can conjure up getting from one position to another.

Quote:
Well I thougth that even though he is not talking about competition now, eventually he will compete in BJJ as I think most people that are serious want to. And even in his training at the club, BJJ rules apply and if someone is just lying and holding, it doesn't give any of them that very much, so either the two people sparring or the instructor should decide to switch positions. But then again who am I to say from which positions you learn alot, if you are lying down extremely controlled by your opponent you at least learn that you can be controlled if you get here, and it might be an incentive to be wary of the position and rolling up to all fours before your opponent has you in total control. Eg, roll up when you feel that he is passing your guard.
Fair enough.
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Old 12-16-2006, 03:10 PM   #13 (permalink)
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how can you guys type those essay like responses.

shit on a car and jump on the hood at a red light thats so crazy
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Old 12-17-2006, 10:01 AM   #14 (permalink)
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I'm reading a few little things here. First, I don't mean just locking down my opponent and locking our positions, what I'm talking about is taking control of his arms so that I don't get pounded in the middle of my technique.

You are trying to creat distance by getting a knee in, the biggest problem with this in a street fight (not in BJJ competition) or MMA is that when you create an amount of distance like that you are still in a compromised position (where you can both get punched) and he is on the top, which gives him a definitive advantage. I don't want to do that, but that's just me.

What I suggest instead is closing the distance. It's a personal thing that I have, because it's much harder for an opponent to strike me when I am in control of his body in a tight, clinch-style hold. It is, however, equally easy for me to control his body, or his limbs depending on the position, so that I can get leverage and better my own situation.
I just can't believe that getting a knee in wouldn't be an improvment. With a knee you have control over distance and more opportunities for escaping into guard and pushing him away. You can still grapple with his arms when distance is close, and when distance is farther away you get more leverage for pushing, and hence you control his strike-ability even further.

Quote:
My mistake, I thought what you were talking about was a full back roll while slipping in the first leg hook/part of body triangle and taking his back rolling over his should, which is just an extension of the armbar I was talking about. Still, good stuff.
Wow, I still don't get what this technique does. But if I even understand the first part correctly, then you want a WHOLE leg to pass under your opponent? Not just the knee. This has to be slower/tougher then getting a knee in.

Quote:
If I seperate our bodies with my knee so that his chest is now above my chest then he has excellent leverage for punches and a very good position for a basic hammer-fist.

While he is lying on my chest it is actually pretty awkward for him to try and hammer-fist or straight-punch, so what he'll probably do (if he's smart) is go for short elbows.
The seperation with the knee is not between your chests. Your knee goes in the creese of his hip, or somewhere over his thigh etc. If he is lying very outstretched, then yes he is in a very awkward position to make strikes, and he is basically sacrificing strikes for control. This might be the time to hold his arms. But before he establishes this very controlling position you might have already have plenty of opportunities to get your knee in, or roll up and away from him.

Quote:
My issue is that the time you are giving your opponent while you: slip in your knee - push your opponent away - rotate your body - twist your hips - put your legs into position for guard, is more than enough time for a competent grappler to land a few shots. If any of these shots land with any force, it might not be too pretty.
Well, that chain of events aren't as slow as you seem to think. If you know how to do this correctly and time it well, you will actually just do one bridge over your shoulder and then pull in your knee. This is a big step forward. Your arms can still grapple with his and defend your head if you like. But to get space and leverage you need to push on his body preferably with your forearms, if you already had your arms in a good position, controlling the arm that is nearest your head with one arm, and the side of your head with the elbow of your other arm, then you are basically very near this position. Heck, I think you could even have it under his throat, if he moves for a strike you can elbow him in the head. Either way you have two arms against two arms.


Quote:
I understand that, from a wrestling standpoing, your knees are a good position to be. I have issues with trying to get there against an intelligent opponent because it is, again, a very compromised position. In a sport where striking is not allowed then I understand the logic but in a street fight there are few main worries like strikes to the body, elbows to the back and crown of the head and a handful of other strikes that you can conjure up getting from one position to another.
The main issue for me here is, when do you do it. Rolling up on all fours you do when there is still alot of space, or if for some reason there became alot of space. The first scenario is when you KNOW he is going to pass, then you accept it and instead of letting him force his way through you roll up and away. The second scenario, where the space was created, after he established position, could happen sometimes when he for some reason moves away.

But again I must tell you, that this is best suited for sport-BJJ. Even though there is a good foundation when strikes are involved, I have not covered specific aspects of how to avoid punches. But no matter what, if you get passed, then you can not against an almost equal opponent assume that you will not get hit. You have to accept some punishment for getting caught in this position. If you had been better, you already had 10 chances to escape, all the way through his pass. You can move your head around, play with his arms, push him with your knee, etc, all to make his punches very uncertain and he would have to be lucky to land a precis and hard one. Especially if you get your knee in, then he has not much transfer of punching power from his hips or further down to the ground, and you are also holding his weight off. Sissy-punches with bad accuracy, don't be afraid of them.
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:28 PM   #15 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by astro2
I just can't believe that getting a knee in wouldn't be an improvment. With a knee you have control over distance and more opportunities for escaping into guard and pushing him away. You can still grapple with his arms when distance is close, and when distance is farther away you get more leverage for pushing, and hence you control his strike-ability even further.
A knee is fine in sport BJJ and the leverage is helpful even in a streetfight. But if you are giving a trained fighter that kind of room his is going to move right back in with strikes. If he is close to your body he either has to **** his punches/elbows to strike or grapple with you.

Quote:
Wow, I still don't get what this technique does. But if I even understand the first part correctly, then you want a WHOLE leg to pass under your opponent? Not just the knee. This has to be slower/tougher then getting a knee in.
You're passing the leg up and over the back so that you can control his face and the arm that you intend to bar, once that part is finished you can slip the other arm in to finalize the armbar.

Quote:
The seperation with the knee is not between your chests. Your knee goes in the creese of his hip, or somewhere over his thigh etc. If he is lying very outstretched, then yes he is in a very awkward position to make strikes, and he is basically sacrificing strikes for control. This might be the time to hold his arms. But before he establishes this very controlling position you might have already have plenty of opportunities to get your knee in, or roll up and away from him.
What you do in either scenario, whether pushing his knees or is chest, is give him room to lift up and follow with strikes. Yes, he loses a certain degree of control, but you have sacrificed your face.

In a streetfight if you are holding his arms you are losing a good amount of your mobility, however, I will sacrifice that mobility if it keeps my head from getting smashed in the pavement.

Yes, you have had plenty of opportunities to escape, but you also had plenty of opportunities to escape before he got into side control.


Quote:
Well, that chain of events aren't as slow as you seem to think. If you know how to do this correctly and time it well, you will actually just do one bridge over your shoulder and then pull in your knee. This is a big step forward. Your arms can still grapple with his and defend your head if you like. But to get space and leverage you need to push on his body preferably with your forearms, if you already had your arms in a good position, controlling the arm that is nearest your head with one arm, and the side of your head with the elbow of your other arm, then you are basically very near this position. Heck, I think you could even have it under his throat, if he moves for a strike you can elbow him in the head. Either way you have two arms against two arms.
Speed is relative. Even if you "time it well" and bridge over the shoulder, there are still moments where you are leaving yourself exposed to strikes. Those can be minimized with experience, but they will always be there.

Yes, it's two arms against two arms, but he has leverage and if you try and strike with him, if he knows a damn thing about grappling he will pass into the mount and you're screwed.

In most positions both fighters have the same number of striking tools, the issue is leverage, and you don't have that when your opponent is on the better part of side control.


Quote:
The main issue for me here is, when do you do it. Rolling up on all fours you do when there is still alot of space, or if for some reason there became alot of space. The first scenario is when you KNOW he is going to pass, then you accept it and instead of letting him force his way through you roll up and away. The second scenario, where the space was created, after he established position, could happen sometimes when he for some reason moves away.
Still, it's a bad idea in any fight against any kind of aggressive opponent.

Quote:
But again I must tell you, that this is best suited for sport-BJJ. Even though there is a good foundation when strikes are involved, I have not covered specific aspects of how to avoid punches. But no matter what, if you get passed, then you can not against an almost equal opponent assume that you will not get hit. You have to accept some punishment for getting caught in this position. If you had been better, you already had 10 chances to escape, all the way through his pass. You can move your head around, play with his arms, push him with your knee, etc, all to make his punches very uncertain and he would have to be lucky to land a precis and hard one. Especially if you get your knee in, then he has not much transfer of punching power from his hips or further down to the ground, and you are also holding his weight off. Sissy-punches with bad accuracy, don't be afraid of them.
Yes, your approach is best suited for sport BJJ, I understand that. I just covered some aspects of avoiding punches, the primary one being that you shouldn't create distance to let him close it with strikes, this is one of the fundamentals of grappling. We grapple so that we don't have to get punched in the face.

You don't have to accept punishment for getting caught in this position if you know what you're doing. Granted, if you get caught in this position then that's probably not the case, but that wasn't the question that he asked.

Yes, there are ways to keep him from getting into side control in the first place.

This is where you seem to miss the mark on streetfight grappling. If you get your knee in, there are other ways that he can do damage to your face. He can use the strength of his upper body to strike as well as using straight punches to the side of your head. Just because you take his hips out of the equation does not mean that his punches are weak, it just forces your opponent to change his tact.

If you are supporting his weight with your knee then you will eat some overhand elbows and some arcing punches as well as, if he sits up, some nasty follow-up elbows.

Sissy punches don't exist in an aggressive streetfight, especially not if the guy is in a better position than you.

Good post.
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Old 01-09-2007, 04:54 PM   #16 (permalink)
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