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acantare 11-28-2006 11:50 AM

New to BJJ escaping side control
 
I have been been taking BJJ for a month. I'm 5'8 and around 170lbs. My first few times rolling i had a partner around the same size as me ( at most 10 lbs heavier then me) and i had limited trouble holding my partner in my guard. However last class i paired up with a guy who was about 235lbs and I had alot of trouble keeping him from getting side control. When he would establish side control it was very difficult for me to change position. Im wondering what the best plan of attack is for escaping side control from a larger and stronger opponent.

( The best i could do was to simultaniously pop my hips up and try to bench press him, this worked once put took alot of energy)

jtsblacksrt4 11-28-2006 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by acantare
I have been been taking BJJ for a month. I'm 5'8 and around 170lbs. My first few times rolling i had a partner around the same size as me ( at most 10 lbs heavier then me) and i had limited trouble holding my partner in my guard. However last class i paired up with a guy who was about 235lbs and I had alot of trouble keeping him from getting side control. When he would establish side control it was very difficult for me to change position. Im wondering what the best plan of attack is for escaping side control from a larger and stronger opponent.

( The best i could do was to simultaniously pop my hips up and try to bench press him, this worked once put took alot of energy)

Get on your side and ebi from your hips to get distance between you and him. When you get distance push your knee that your weight is on into him. From this point work on getting guard. Someone else may be able to describe it a little better.

jagg 12-02-2006 06:50 PM

check the thread "Technique for getting caught in mount" page 2

IronMan 12-02-2006 06:59 PM

What I like to do is control the arm that is over your legs and roll your legs up while you slip your torso out so that you either take his back or, if you can get your legs all the way up to where your head was, catch him in an armbar.

There are a handful of other ways:

If he tries to get into mount, push off of his hips and get him in full guard.

Take control of one of his legs with your arms, roll over and use a sort of ground single leg to reverse position.

The basic: try to get your legs around one of his, put him in half guard and transition to a kneebar.

Hope these help.

ozz525 12-02-2006 08:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan
What I like to do is control the arm that is over your legs and roll your legs up while you slip your torso out so that you either take his back or, if you can get your legs all the way up to where your head was, catch him in an armbar.

There are a handful of other ways:

If he tries to get into mount, push off of his hips and get him in full guard.

Take control of one of his legs with your arms, roll over and use a sort of ground single leg to reverse position.

The basic: try to get your legs around one of his, put him in half guard and transition to a kneebar.

Hope these help.

control the arm how with what ur arm where do u put it i to have this problem

IronMan 12-03-2006 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ozz525
control the arm how with what ur arm where do u put it i to have this problem

You have a free arm, I guess I thought that was kind of obvious. You can either lock one of their arms in your armpit, which works best for me, because I'm a little guy, while you swing the legs around to get efficient armbar position.

Once you have control of one of their arms, be prepared to eat some strikes. The faster your execution, the fewer punches in the face you have to take, but it takes a while to get to the level where you aren't taking any.

astro2 12-14-2006 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan
You have a free arm, I guess I thought that was kind of obvious. You can either lock one of their arms in your armpit, which works best for me, because I'm a little guy, while you swing the legs around to get efficient armbar position.

Once you have control of one of their arms, be prepared to eat some strikes. The faster your execution, the fewer punches in the face you have to take, but it takes a while to get to the level where you aren't taking any.

Ironman, Dude? Why do you insist on answering BJJ-related questions? He won't get hit by strikes, it's BJJ! And about the free-arm technique locking an arm? HUH?


Thoughts on getting out of side control in BJJ (gi,no strikes)

First of all, there are many side control positions, the one I will be talking about here is the chest-chest side control or 100-kilos position as many call it. That is, he is lying chest down on your chest.

So...

Dont try to lock the guy, you only lock yourself. Some things you can try, in this order.

Establish a good position. One good position is placing one of your forearms against his throat and the other forearm against his hip. Now you have something to push away from and something to spin against. You should try to get one of your knees under your opponent, play around with the space and be sure to bother his throat when you push out. Be careful with your arms and keep your elbows tucked in to your body most of the time. This is so your arms dont get caught and so you have good leverage and position. If you successfully put a knee under his body, then you should know use this leg and knee to spin around even more, you can now with your throat-hand push on his shoulder or head, and you should try to spin so that you can hook your other leg inside his thigh. Then you pull out your first knee and bring it around the guy.

Reasons why it could be hard to do the above.

1) The person keeps his hips really low, so there is no space for your knee to slide in. There is no ultimate solution, he is simply heavier and he might be very good at making himself heavy. And maybe he also moves around very good and reestablishes his position all the time.

2) He is simply very aware of your attempts, because he is more experienced, and he knows how to counter them. This is also the reason that he caught you in side control at all, he might simply be better right now, not necessarily depending on technique, you said he weighed more. Try to drive the game from start and seek top positions where he cant put his weight against you. You might for example go into his guard or half-guard and try passing instead of trying to get him into your guard. Depends on what he wants to do also, of course. But you should be able to just push im down and get on top, in half-guard or full guard.

Since you are new to BJJ, this is also something you have to accept, that this is a totally new position for you. You should play around with his weight, try to get it off your chest. One very important thing to remember is that when you are lying on your back, you don't have very much power to move around, your strongest hip movement is the bridge, straight up in the air, and it's of limited use here.

3) He is holding you around the neck and controlling your head/shoulder/neck. This might seem like something small but if he has an arm around your neck then he has so much more control of your upper body and his body will follow your much more tightly, eliminating the space and time that you need for an escape. Try to establish your forearms in good positions, and if you can get your head free. This is harder than it sounds, so I would advise you to be very cautious and not let him get it their in the first place. It's a mini-fight by your head, every time he goes for your neck, you push him away. This might also be a good time to escape from the side mount position.

4) Depending on where his arms are you have different things to try. Play with the points below if you can't get your knee in.

Try bridging OVER your shoulder, and then slipping knees in. This can require some practice without a partner, you should bridge over your own shoulder away from your partner and then either push away from him. Or you bridge towards him and with some flexibility and practice you create space for your knee.

Try getting onto your side, you will have much more space to play around with.

You can also try getting a VERY good hold of the one of his arms that are near your head, and pushing it away, drive it by his head, and continue pushing it while you sit up. The grip I would prefer is the cloth near his elbow. This would twist his body facing AWAY from your head.

As a last resort, try getting on your back, and then on all fours. From all fours you have great driving power. This could leave you very vulnerable, especially when you don't even know all the positions too well and don't know what you are opening up too, but if you are against another white belt, they might not make to much of it, you can try turtling up, by putting your elbows inside your thighs, while on your knees and hands/elbows. This doesn't leave that many options open, and you should from this position try to face your opponent and eventually drag him into your guard or simply get up.

Also one last thing to remember. In sport-BJJ there is a passivity rule, the guy on top or in control can't stay in the same position for-ever, unless he is going for submission. So if he is just lying there, holding you down with all his power and doing nothing productive or striving for a better position or submission, then he will get warned, and eventually lose points. The escape is in the timing. Technique without timing is mostly useless. So when he moves around, you have a perfect opportunity to try something.

Hope you enjoy some of this. Have a nice day!

astro2 12-14-2006 10:41 PM

thought on side control in bjj
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan
You have a free arm, I guess I thought that was kind of obvious. You can either lock one of their arms in your armpit, which works best for me, because I'm a little guy, while you swing the legs around to get efficient armbar position.

Once you have control of one of their arms, be prepared to eat some strikes. The faster your execution, the fewer punches in the face you have to take, but it takes a while to get to the level where you aren't taking any.

Ironman, Dude? Why do you insist on answering BJJ-related questions? He won't get hit by strikes, it's BJJ! And about the free-arm technique locking an arm? HUH?


Thoughts on getting out of side control in BJJ (gi,no strikes)

First of all, there are many side control positions, the one I will be talking about here is the chest-chest side control or 100-kilos position as many call it. That is, he is lying chest down on your chest.

So...

Dont try to lock the guy, you only lock yourself. Some things you can try, in this order.

Establish a good position. One good position is placing one of your forearms against his throat and the other forearm against his hip. Now you have something to push away from and something to spin against. You should try to get one of your knees under your opponent, play around with the space and be sure to bother his throat when you push out. Be careful with your arms and keep your elbows tucked in to your body most of the time. This is so your arms dont get caught and so you have good leverage and position. If you successfully put a knee under his body, then you should know use this leg and knee to spin around even more, you can now with your throat-hand push on his shoulder or head, and you should try to spin so that you can hook your other leg inside his thigh. Then you pull out your first knee and bring it around the guy.

Reasons why it could be hard to do the above.

1) The person keeps his hips really low, so there is no space for your knee to slide in. There is no ultimate solution, he is simply heavier and he might be very good at making himself heavy. And maybe he also moves around very good and reestablishes his position all the time.

2) He is simply very aware of your attempts, because he is more experienced, and he knows how to counter them. This is also the reason that he caught you in side control at all, he might simply be better right now, not necessarily depending on technique, you said he weighed more. Try to drive the game from start and seek top positions where he cant put his weight against you. You might for example go into his guard or half-guard and try passing instead of trying to get him into your guard. Depends on what he wants to do also, of course. But you should be able to just push im down and get on top, in half-guard or full guard.

Since you are new to BJJ, this is also something you have to accept, that this is a totally new position for you. You should play around with his weight, try to get it off your chest. One very important thing to remember is that when you are lying on your back, you don't have very much power to move around, your strongest hip movement is the bridge, straight up in the air, and it's of limited use here.

3) He is holding you around the neck and controlling your head/shoulder/neck. This might seem like something small but if he has an arm around your neck then he has so much more control of your upper body and his body will follow your much more tightly, eliminating the space and time that you need for an escape. Try to establish your forearms in good positions, and if you can get your head free. This is harder than it sounds, so I would advise you to be very cautious and not let him get it their in the first place. It's a mini-fight by your head, every time he goes for your neck, you push him away. This might also be a good time to escape from the side mount position.

4) Depending on where his arms are you have different things to try. Play with the points below if you can't get your knee in.

Try bridging OVER your shoulder, and then slipping knees in. This can require some practice without a partner, you should bridge over your own shoulder away from your partner and then either push away from him. Or you bridge towards him and with some flexibility and practice you create space for your knee.

Try getting onto your side, you will have much more space to play around with.

You can also try getting a VERY good hold of the one of his arms that are near your head, and pushing it away, drive it by his head, and continue pushing it while you sit up. The grip I would prefer is the cloth near his elbow. This would twist his body facing AWAY from your head.

As a last resort, try getting on your back, and then on all fours. From all fours you have great driving power. This could leave you very vulnerable, especially when you don't even know all the positions too well and don't know what you are opening up too, but if you are against another white belt, they might not make to much of it, you can try turtling up, by putting your elbows inside your thighs, while on your knees and hands/elbows. This doesn't leave that many options open, and you should from this position try to face your opponent and eventually drag him into your guard or simply get up.

Also one last thing to remember. In sport-BJJ there is a passivity rule, the guy on top or in control can't stay in the same position for-ever, unless he is going for submission. So if he is just lying there, holding you down with all his power and doing nothing productive or striving for a better position or submission, then he will get warned, and eventually lose points. The escape is in the timing. Technique without timing is mostly useless. So when he moves around, you have a perfect opportunity to try something.

Hope you enjoy some of this. Have a nice day!

IronMan 12-15-2006 12:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by astro2
Ironman, Dude? Why do you insist on answering BJJ-related questions? He won't get hit by strikes, it's BJJ! And about the free-arm technique locking an arm? HUH?

I was under the impression that he wanted something that wouldn't get him killed in the real world. :dunno:


Quote:

Dont try to lock the guy, you only lock yourself. Some things you can try, in this order.
Are you talking about neutralizing the opponent? If that is the case, then I agree.

Quote:

Establish a good position. One good position is placing one of your forearms against his throat and the other forearm against his hip. Now you have something to push away from and something to spin against. You should try to get one of your knees under your opponent, play around with the space and be sure to bother his throat when you push out. Be careful with your arms and keep your elbows tucked in to your body most of the time. This is so your arms dont get caught and so you have good leverage and position. If you successfully put a knee under his body, then you should know use this leg and knee to spin around even more, you can now with your throat-hand push on his shoulder or head, and you should try to spin so that you can hook your other leg inside his thigh. Then you pull out your first knee and bring it around the guy.
This sounds like an interesting approach. I haven't thought of it, but I'l try it out the next time I get on the mat. It actually looks eerily similar to the arm-bar attempts that I was mentioning. Does this give you his back?

Quote:

1) The person keeps his hips really low, so there is no space for your knee to slide in. There is no ultimate solution, he is simply heavier and he might be very good at making himself heavy. And maybe he also moves around very good and reestablishes his position all the time.

2) He is simply very aware of your attempts, because he is more experienced, and he knows how to counter them. This is also the reason that he caught you in side control at all, he might simply be better right now, not necessarily depending on technique, you said he weighed more. Try to drive the game from start and seek top positions where he cant put his weight against you. You might for example go into his guard or half-guard and try passing instead of trying to get him into your guard. Depends on what he wants to do also, of course. But you should be able to just push im down and get on top, in half-guard or full guard.
Good points.

Quote:

Since you are new to BJJ, this is also something you have to accept, that this is a totally new position for you. You should play around with his weight, try to get it off your chest. One very important thing to remember is that when you are lying on your back, you don't have very much power to move around, your strongest hip movement is the bridge, straight up in the air, and it's of limited use here.
This is a good point, but the real moral of this is that you need to build experience working from this position.

Quote:

3) He is holding you around the neck and controlling your head/shoulder/neck. This might seem like something small but if he has an arm around your neck then he has so much more control of your upper body and his body will follow your much more tightly, eliminating the space and time that you need for an escape. Try to establish your forearms in good positions, and if you can get your head free. This is harder than it sounds, so I would advise you to be very cautious and not let him get it their in the first place. It's a mini-fight by your head, every time he goes for your neck, you push him away. This might also be a good time to escape from the side mount position.

4) Depending on where his arms are you have different things to try. Play with the points below if you can't get your knee in.

Try bridging OVER your shoulder, and then slipping knees in. This can require some practice without a partner, you should bridge over your own shoulder away from your partner and then either push away from him. Or you bridge towards him and with some flexibility and practice you create space for your knee.
This is actually a good point. While I don't usually try to do anything that can get my face crushed, like bridging without first controlling my opponents arms, I am not big on BJJ competition, so I don't really know.

Quote:

You can also try getting a VERY good hold of the one of his arms that are near your head, and pushing it away, drive it by his head, and continue pushing it while you sit up. The grip I would prefer is the cloth near his elbow. This would twist his body facing AWAY from your head.
This is an interesting bit of gi grappling and I like the idea of controlling the arm. The idea of pushing his arm away might be difficult being on the bottom unless you are stronger then your opponent, which you cannot always count on.

Quote:

As a last resort, try getting on your back, and then on all fours. From all fours you have great driving power. This could leave you very vulnerable, especially when you don't even know all the positions too well and don't know what you are opening up too, but if you are against another white belt, they might not make to much of it, you can try turtling up, by putting your elbows inside your thighs, while on your knees and hands/elbows. This doesn't leave that many options open, and you should from this position try to face your opponent and eventually drag him into your guard or simply get up.
Yeah, give him your back. I may not be a master at BJJ, but even I can tell you that's not a good idea. I guess that's why it's a last resort, though.

Quote:

Also one last thing to remember. In sport-BJJ there is a passivity rule, the guy on top or in control can't stay in the same position for-ever, unless he is going for submission. So if he is just lying there, holding you down with all his power and doing nothing productive or striving for a better position or submission, then he will get warned, and eventually lose points. The escape is in the timing. Technique without timing is mostly useless. So when he moves around, you have a perfect opportunity to try something.
Yeah, the layngay strategy is both boring and gets point deductions in BJJ competition. If he was talking about competing, which I doubt he was with being new to BJJ, then I apologize. I'm not a BJJ competitor.

Yes, time your escapes and submissions. That is an important skill that comes with experience, but not until you f*ck up the technique a dozen times first.

Good post, astro.:D Definitely repped.

astro2 12-15-2006 11:36 AM

How do you do that cool quoting of parts?

Some clarifications.

When I said that you shouldn't lock your opponent, because you lock yourself I meant this. When you grab a good hold of your opponent from the bottom, then simultaneously you lock your own position. When you are in the bottom you don't want to stay there, you want to get out. You want to create space, get in a knee, get away. If you just hold on tightly then you give the guy on the top what he wants, control. You have to get his weight off, you have to get yourself in a better position for leverage. This is not done if you hold him, in any way. You should be pushing away from him, until you are in a spot where you once again can attack him and get control of him instead, that's the time to start locking him and holding him, when you are free to get control.

"It actually looks eerily similar to the arm-bar attempts that I was mentioning. Does this give you his back?"

"
Quote:
Establish a good position. One good position is placing one of your forearms against his throat and the other forearm against his hip. Now you have something to push away from and something to spin against. You should try to get one of your knees under your opponent, play around with the space and be sure to bother his throat when you push out. Be careful with your arms and keep your elbows tucked in to your body most of the time. This is so your arms dont get caught and so you have good leverage and position. If you successfully put a knee under his body, then you should know use this leg and knee to spin around even more, you can now with your throat-hand push on his shoulder or head, and you should try to spin so that you can hook your other leg inside his thigh. Then you pull out your first knee and bring it around the guy.

This sounds like an interesting approach. I haven't thought of it, but I'l try it out the next time I get on the mat. It actually looks eerily similar to the arm-bar attempts that I was mentioning. Does this give you his back?"

No this does not give you his back, this pulls your opponent into your guard. In the starting position he is chest on your chest. You are trying to rotate underneath him, and getting him in between your legs, by first getting one knee under his body, then you continue rotating till you have both your legs around him, still lying on your back, and that is the guard.

Going for the back is not much you can hope for if you are having trouble escaping, especially since using the above forearm on his throat, you don't have the underhook needed to circle to his back. You could switch midway, go for the halfguard, and then the underhook and go for the back, but there are many details to that move that I wont cover now.

"While I don't usually try to do anything that can get my face crushed, like bridging without first controlling my opponents arms, I am not big on BJJ competition, so I don't really know."

Well I can't talk for much more than pure gi-BJJ. With punches you have a more complex game. But considering it being a side control, getting just one knee in should make plenty of distance to avoid punches enough. And an opponent will have a hard time landing punches and even elbows if he is very flat on your chest, so when he goes for the punishment, you will have space and you might accept perhaps a 50%-blow somewhere on your head, until you get half or full-guard and either lock one or both of his arms, or being in a fullguard you have greater control of the distance between you and you can hit him better than he can you, if you keep his weight off you.

"This is an interesting bit of gi grappling and I like the idea of controlling the arm. The idea of pushing his arm away might be difficult being on the bottom unless you are stronger then your opponent, which you cannot always count on."

It's actually not as much depending on strength as it is on the right moment to do it, once you have his elbow and he is facing away from you, you have very very good leverage on him, and you might even get the back from this. But the leverage here is him being very low on your chest, facing away and not having your arm trapped. The counter against this escape-technique is of course getting very high on your opponents chest, locking his arms behind your back, and virtually without anything interesting to do with his arms. Then you play for the mount.


"Yeah, give him your back. I may not be a master at BJJ, but even I can tell you that's not a good idea. I guess that's why it's a last resort, though."

The point of this idea is to explore all your options, sometimes you are able to instead of getting one knee inside of his body, you move your body very far away from him by circling and you might be able to go to your side and then roll over to your back, by switching your hip in a scissorlike manner, and then immidiately get on your knees. From the knees, even if he is on top of you, you have very good movement freedom and power. It's a more powerful position than most people realise, but since your head might be looking against the floor you need good sensitivity and awareness of what's going on with your opponent. There are plenty of takedowns you can do from here and you can for example pull guard, go for an omo plata, go for the back and lots of other things, depending on what your opponent does. What you are looking for most basically from this turtle position is to keep him in front of you, dont let him circle around your body, so grab what you can.


"Yeah, the layngay strategy is both boring and gets point deductions in BJJ competition. If he was talking about competing, which I doubt he was with being new to BJJ, then I apologize. I'm not a BJJ competitor."

Well I thougth that even though he is not talking about competition now, eventually he will compete in BJJ as I think most people that are serious want to. And even in his training at the club, BJJ rules apply and if someone is just lying and holding, it doesn't give any of them that very much, so either the two people sparring or the instructor should decide to switch positions. But then again who am I to say from which positions you learn alot, if you are lying down extremely controlled by your opponent you at least learn that you can be controlled if you get here, and it might be an incentive to be wary of the position and rolling up to all fours before your opponent has you in total control. Eg, roll up when you feel that he is passing your guard.


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