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-   -   Classical ju jitsu vs Submission grappling article (http://www.mmaforum.com/grappling-technique/5895-classical-ju-jitsu-vs-submission-grappling-article.html)

TheSuplexor 12-02-2006 11:47 PM

Classical ju jitsu vs Submission grappling article
 
Submission Grappling Vs. Classical Ju-jutsu
very cool and interesting about the logic behind them

IronMan 12-03-2006 01:00 PM

It's an interesting article, and I always enjoy reading Grapplearts stuff, because there are always some good ideas, but here's my take on it:

Classical jujitsu forms have a level of basic spirituality and a certain level of respect for one's adversay, like almost all classical martial arts. Where as submission grappling, in many situations, removes that idea of respect and focuses much more on the fight itself. That's the first major difference.

The biggest difference, in terms of technique, isn't particularly large, but it is important. In many styles of submission grappling there is a predisposition to using brute force, in classical jujitsu there is a great deal of focus on minimizing the brute strength factor by maximizing the little details of every technique.

There are also a few issues that I have with the photos used, in that they are not really action shots and they look painfully prepared. This depends greatly on the style of jujitsu, but this is how I learned to perform these techniques in classical jujitsu:

http://www.grapplearts.com/Classical...su-armlock.htm

This is generally a pretty good armlock, but the center of gravity has to be a great deal lower and move the back forward into it. You are still forcing the arm up towards the head, but you supply much more power from the legs.

http://www.grapplearts.com/Classical-Jujutsu-Choke.htm

Choke is generally pretty good, but I would follow from this technique with a backwards roll as they are taught in Aikido. Definitely unpleasant for whoever is recieving the technique and allows for maximum leverage.

http://www.grapplearts.com/Classical...su-Leglock.htm

The biggest issue is that there really isn't enough torque in the body to really pain the knee. This is a sloppy version of a straight leglock that really just looks like a wrestling pin and could be done a lot better, but if it was you would see the wrestler wincing.

I'll post on the submission grappling in a little bit.

TheSuplexor 12-03-2006 01:16 PM

so you don't think the ju jitsu techniques are refined enough? they said it was used on the samurais with body armor on and that's whh some are like that...with the choke it supossed to be a quick one so if a second attacker came in, he could stand up and fight him.

IronMan 12-03-2006 02:20 PM

I'm sorry if I didn't make this clear.

I love jujitsu, I'm a jujitsu fanatic. I do, however, think that the jujitsu exhibited in these photos is second rate and not entirely efficient.

Samurai jujitsu was developed for multi-man combat, like anyone who studies it knows. The choke I am describing is even a little bit more effective, because it allows you to use the first enemies body as a sheild against the second enemy. Obviously, in the case of modern competition, my version is still more effective.

My point isn't that classical jujitsu is uneffective, just that the way it was exhibited above is far from perfect.

TheSuplexor 12-03-2006 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan
I'm sorry if I didn't make this clear.

I love jujitsu, I'm a jujitsu fanatic. I do, however, think that the jujitsu exhibited in these photos is second rate and not entirely efficient.

Samurai jujitsu was developed for multi-man combat, like anyone who studies it knows. The choke I am describing is even a little bit more effective, because it allows you to use the first enemies body as a sheild against the second enemy. Obviously, in the case of modern competition, my version is still more effective.

My point isn't that classical jujitsu is uneffective, just that the way it was exhibited above is far from perfect.

is bjj much closer to perfect then?

IronMan 12-03-2006 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by doublelegtakedown
is bjj much closer to perfect then?

Nothing is perfct, even BJJ has flaws. I'll explain on a seperate thread, but I have to go.

Ybot 12-09-2006 09:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan
Nothing is perfct, even BJJ has flaws. I'll explain on a seperate thread, but I have to go.

Iron man, you have an intresting take on the grappling arts. I'm really curious about your complete grappling background. I mean, exactly what training makes you qualified to judge the classical jujitsu demonstrations on the Grapple Arts page? What is your experience with BJJ? Who were/are your instructors, training partners, and teammates?

IronMan 12-09-2006 11:42 PM

I spent alot of time in Judo, Japanese Jujitsu, small-circle jujitsu, as well as wrestling. I use Aikido as a spiritual practice and a meditation.

I trained in Ralph Gracie Jiu-Jitsu under Dave Clahan (the school's in Berkeley, CA). It's a good BJJ school and the stuff there is good, but after a few classes I realized that my grappling game wasn't getting better because it wasn't pushing me to do anything I didn't already know about it from watching BJJ fighters and from the guys who I spar with now.

No disrespect to BJJ, I think it's a great style with alot to offer, but the people who say that it's unbeatable and the perfect martial arts style need to get off of it. There is no perfect style, everything can be beaten. Styles are perfect, in theory, but because people aren't perfect the martial arts groups aren't perfect. All styles have their flaws, and BJJ has as many of those flaws as any other style.

My own backround is nothing great, but I speak from an unbiased point of view. The only thing in my game that I pride myself on is not using any style, because of what I was once told by a great martial artist:

"Great martial artists use do (a set style). Great warriors use touhou (me or my)."

This is the entire founding of my career as a student. I always look for what I can learn in a style. I also try to find what is wrong with the style. Everything has a lesson and everything has a flaw, my goal is to find them.

Ybot 12-10-2006 01:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan
I spent alot of time in Judo, Japanese Jujitsu, small-circle jujitsu, as well as wrestling. I use Aikido as a spiritual practice and a meditation.

I trained in Ralph Gracie Jiu-Jitsu under Dave Clahan (the school's in Berkeley, CA). It's a good BJJ school and the stuff there is good, but after a few classes I realized that my grappling game wasn't getting better because it wasn't pushing me to do anything I didn't already know about it from watching BJJ fighters and from the guys who I spar with now.

No disrespect to BJJ, I think it's a great style with alot to offer, but the people who say that it's unbeatable and the perfect martial arts style need to get off of it. There is no perfect style, everything can be beaten. Styles are perfect, in theory, but because people aren't perfect the martial arts groups aren't perfect. All styles have their flaws, and BJJ has as many of those flaws as any other style.

My own backround is nothing great, but I speak from an unbiased point of view. The only thing in my game that I pride myself on is not using any style, because of what I was once told by a great martial artist:

"Great martial artists use do (a set style). Great warriors use touhou (me or my)."

This is the entire founding of my career as a student. I always look for what I can learn in a style. I also try to find what is wrong with the style. Everything has a lesson and everything has a flaw, my goal is to find them.

I absolutely believe that BJJ is not perfect... What it is is an excellent group of tools for a single range of combat, especially in the gi. I'm not a fighter in an MMA since, but I am a grappler. If I can learn tools from outside arts that will improve my game under BJJ or sub grappling rules that's great. I'm not to proud to steal from other arts, but that said, what I do is BJJ.

I read your posts, and I see that you have a very different take on the grappling arts than I do. It's good, in my opinion, to have my beliefs challenged. I read into Catch Wrestling, Judo, Folk Wreslting, Greco, Freestyle, and yes even Sumo, Aikido, and Hapkido for that reason (and to see what I can steal). But when I get no more than what I see as vague claims, I have to at least question.

Okay, so thanks for addressing my question, but I still would like to know your qualification for critiquing the Traditional Jujitsu on the Grapple Arts page. You say you studied Japanese Jujitsu... What Ryu? Is it closely related to the Ryu presented on the Grapple Arts page? Hell, some people who study Japanese Jujitsu never do newaza, and only limited grappling. They do more striking like karate... so, it does matter.

Being from BJJ I could easily say that the calf lock shown isn't the way I do it so it's wrong, but it is a different school of thought after all, and who am I to say. I mean the Sambo guy will look at BJJ's leg locks and think them primitive, yet I know I can make my straight foot look work in the context of BJJ. May not catch the Sambo guy, of course.

JawShattera 12-10-2006 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan
Nothing is perfct, even BJJ has flaws.


yes i agree you must add boxing, judo and muay thai to complete the unstoppable art that is:

brazilian bo-judo thai:cool:


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