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Old 10-04-2009, 11:47 AM   #1 (permalink)
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Ground defense basics please

Hi,

Complete grappling ignoramus here. Done kickboxing, other MA blah, blah. I want a quick intro to basics of defence against ground attacks, i.e. the basic priorities and strategy - because it looks like a intricate game of 3-d chess to me.

Is this any good?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iB5n...eature=related
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Old 10-04-2009, 11:50 AM   #2 (permalink)
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Oh, and just for entertainment purposes, what's wrong with these assumptions...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cCrTbVAjxs

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Old 10-05-2009, 01:01 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Olde View Post
Hi,

Complete grappling ignoramus here. Done kickboxing, other MA blah, blah. I want a quick intro to basics of defence against ground attacks, i.e. the basic priorities and strategy - because it looks like a intricate game of 3-d chess to me.

Is this any good?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2iB5n...eature=related
Depends on what you want to use the defense for. In a ring you need years of grappling, learning the intricate nature of submissions, submission defense, positions, transitions and how/when to use them.

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Oh, and just for entertainment purposes, what's wrong with these assumptions...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cCrTbVAjxs

Nothing. In a real fight grappling is all but useless and turns the fight into who is stronger/more brutal is who wins. On the ground instinctively I go straight for the eyes/groin. The most dangerous place to be is laying face down with someone on your back with their feet or "hooks" in, in such a situation your best defense is to roll over to your back and get a hold of one of their arms on the under side of the wrist there are all sorts of veins and tendons, by holding the arm tight to your mouth you can bite and rip these, but you have to be careful not to let them flail their arms or you'll lose teeth. But assuming you pull this off which isn't that difficult they are one hand/arm down and their bleeding out.

Don't get me wrong a legit bjj blackbelt could very well use it to defeat an average person with no experience in a fair street fight, but for most people in most cases it is useless and dangerous to use in a real fight.
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Old 10-05-2009, 02:17 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Depends on what you want to use the defense for.
Well, in case you end up on the ground in a fight. I'm talking basic knowledge in case you get stuck in that situation. If someone knows a bit, and I don't, I think I'm at a big disadvantage. No one should chose the ground in a fight IMO, but I've seen videos of fights being won with apparently rudimentary knowledge of ground fighting.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:46 AM   #5 (permalink)
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Well, in case you end up on the ground in a fight. I'm talking basic knowledge in case you get stuck in that situation. If someone knows a bit, and I don't, I think I'm at a big disadvantage. No one should chose the ground in a fight IMO, but I've seen videos of fights being won with apparently rudimentary knowledge of ground fighting.
You'd actually be surprized, I gave bjj a go at a local gym for 9 weeks about 6 months ago. The first time they let me roll I was doing okay and lasting minutes before submitting. After just a couple weeks my partner who had been practicing for years could no longer submit me if I didn't let him. I stopped after 9 weeks because it wasn't fun for me, I couldn't see it as being practical even if I end up on the ground in a fight without dedicating years of practice to it and I had no plans of doing tourneys etc.

Make no mistake in the ring it is very very useful and I'd be wrong to say it isn't extremely dangerous, but in a real fight not so much.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:03 PM   #6 (permalink)
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I'm not sure what kind of gym you were at that they couldn't submit you after 9 weeks of training, but it must have been pretty bad. A person that has been doing BJJ for years should easily be able to cut angles and use leverage to toss around a 9 week guy like a ragdoll.

I personally have used BJJ in a fight (not a cage fight). I had a guy tackle me one time with no warning (he was drinking). He ended up in my guard and I immediately swept him, got top position, and secured a kimura. Since he had no idea what he was doing, he basically gave his arm to me. I dislocated the shoulder and all the fight went right out of him.

The second time I had to use BJJ a guy started an arguement with me over nothing. I tried to get him to simply move out of my way and he pushed me, I pushed him back, he went to push me and I double legged him, dropped him on his shoulder blades/back of head, then arm triangled him to sleep. Took all of about 10 seconds total.

BJJ does work...if you know what you are doing.
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Old 10-05-2009, 04:47 PM   #7 (permalink)
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I'm not sure what kind of gym you were at that they couldn't submit you after 9 weeks of training, but it must have been pretty bad. A person that has been doing BJJ for years should easily be able to cut angles and use leverage to toss around a 9 week guy like a ragdoll.

I personally have used BJJ in a fight (not a cage fight). I had a guy tackle me one time with no warning (he was drinking). He ended up in my guard and I immediately swept him, got top position, and secured a kimura. Since he had no idea what he was doing, he basically gave his arm to me. I dislocated the shoulder and all the fight went right out of him.

The second time I had to use BJJ a guy started an arguement with me over nothing. I tried to get him to simply move out of my way and he pushed me, I pushed him back, he went to push me and I double legged him, dropped him on his shoulder blades/back of head, then arm triangled him to sleep. Took all of about 10 seconds total.

BJJ does work...if you know what you are doing.
I might have given you the wrong idea about my experience with bjj. My partner was only my partner because we were like the exact same weight/height. The difference was quality of weight, I was quite a bit stronger than he was and I am in no way saying I cannot be submitted etc by someone who practices bjj. But after testing the ropes I felt it completely useless and dangerous in a real fight.

I have a very similar story I shared a long time ago on this forum. Drunk guy tackles me outside a bar and gets me completely off guard, I put a thumb in his eye, fight is over. No ground training, are you really so sure that someone would not easily do the same to you? Not to mention the threat of being kicked/stomped by others when your on the ground you're completely vulnerable.

Why put yourself at risk, if you already have to catch them off guard in order to get it to the ground why not catch them off guard with a punch and end the fight in less than a second without the risk of being stomped/eye gouged/groin assaulted/throat grabbed etc?
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Old 10-05-2009, 05:58 PM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xeberus View Post
I might have given you the wrong idea about my experience with bjj. My partner was only my partner because we were like the exact same weight/height. The difference was quality of weight, I was quite a bit stronger than he was and I am in no way saying I cannot be submitted etc by someone who practices bjj. But after testing the ropes I felt it completely useless and dangerous in a real fight.

I have a very similar story I shared a long time ago on this forum. Drunk guy tackles me outside a bar and gets me completely off guard, I put a thumb in his eye, fight is over. No ground training, are you really so sure that someone would not easily do the same to you? Not to mention the threat of being kicked/stomped by others when your on the ground you're completely vulnerable.

Why put yourself at risk, if you already have to catch them off guard in order to get it to the ground why not catch them off guard with a punch and end the fight in less than a second without the risk of being stomped/eye gouged/groin assaulted/throat grabbed etc?
With a street fight there are too many variables. On the same note what are you going to do about the person who hits you with a bat from behind when you are fighting his buddy? What are you going to do about the person who shoots you from 30' away? See what I'm getting at?? As far as being stomped by another person while fighting on the ground, if you are good enough fighting on the ground you can at least move your hips enough to avoid or try to use the person you are on the ground with to shield yourself from some of the barrage...sure it's not fool-proofed, but in a street fight what is??

To be honest the second time I had to use BJJ to defend myself the guy had 3 buddies with him. I don't know if their intention was to jump in or not, but after they saw how easily and technically I destroyed their buddy they wanted no part of it. I myself would be more inclined to jump on someone who just gouged his finger in my buddies eye rather than someone who just pulled off a very technical submission and choked my buddy out in seconds...the person doing the gouging, well anybody can do that, maybe it was just luck or instinct. On the other hand the guy that just technically wiped my buddy out in a couple seconds and put him to sleep...well, I know he can fight so it's probably best just to leave him alone. Maybe that's not how all people think, but that's how I would think.

Also it's hard to comment on your experience with BJJ because it's likely you just got stuck with a creampuff guy at the gym who's been around training a few years off and on and really hasn't learned much of anything and doesn't care about getting better but figures he doesn't have anything better to do so what the hell...To be completely honest with you, when I was training about 6 months I went to another gym and trained and rolled with a few guys. There was a blue belt there that had been doing BJJ for over 4 years and just got his blue. I rolled with him and demolished him. He was just not a competitor, he was one of those guys that just want a little workout. My whole point with the anti-BJJ thing is that before you make a descision on it perhaps you should spend time going to a bunch of different gyms and roll with a bunch of guys blue belt and higher and then see if you still think BJJ is useless.

I don't know how most schools are but at our school it's 2 years minimum to get your blue...someone who's blue should easily toss a 9 week student around regardless of size or power. I rolled with a guy a few months ago that was a good bit larger than me (about 40-50lbs.), he was pretty strong (lifts all the time), and had a couple months BJJ experience. I choked the guy out in around 45 seconds...and I mean completely unconcious. He said the gym he came from nobody could do anything with him and that he was top dog there, yet when he came to our gym our 145lbs. guys were giving him fits, the big boys were tapping him pretty easily.
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Old 10-05-2009, 06:56 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BlacklistShaun View Post
With a street fight there are too many variables. On the same note what are you going to do about the person who hits you with a bat from behind when you are fighting his buddy? What are you going to do about the person who shoots you from 30' away? See what I'm getting at?? As far as being stomped by another person while fighting on the ground, if you are good enough fighting on the ground you can at least move your hips enough to avoid or try to use the person you are on the ground with to shield yourself from some of the barrage...sure it's not fool-proofed, but in a street fight what is??
Yes, but im talking probability and chance its easy to watch your surroundings from your feet. On the ground you are way less likely to see it coming and I can duck a bat or just run away, on the ground I can't do anything.

I was actually talking about someone else stomping or head kicking while your on the ground with the other person, you are vulnerable greatly not just to the person your on the ground with but your defenseless to everything else.


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To be honest the second time I had to use BJJ to defend myself the guy had 3 buddies with him. I don't know if their intention was to jump in or not, but after they saw how easily and technically I destroyed their buddy they wanted no part of it. I myself would be more inclined to jump on someone who just gouged his finger in my buddies eye rather than someone who just pulled off a very technical submission and choked my buddy out in seconds...the person doing the gouging, well anybody can do that, maybe it was just luck or instinct. On the other hand the guy that just technically wiped my buddy out in a couple seconds and put him to sleep...well, I know he can fight so it's probably best just to leave him alone. Maybe that's not how all people think, but that's how I would think.
you got lucky because in that same situation 9 of 10 times you wouldn't remember what happened if you could still be capable of remembering. I've hit guys who had friends and they ended up not wanting any of it, but on the ground I very much doubt they would walk away. Especially if you just choked their friend out which is remarkable they didn't all jump in at once, which seems the obvious choice since your occupied and defenseless on the ground and their friend is being choked.

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Also it's hard to comment on your experience with BJJ because it's likely you just got stuck with a creampuff guy at the gym who's been around training a few years off and on and really hasn't learned much of anything and doesn't care about getting better but figures he doesn't have anything better to do so what the hell...To be completely honest with you, when I was training about 6 months I went to another gym and trained and rolled with a few guys. There was a blue belt there that had been doing BJJ for over 4 years and just got his blue. I rolled with him and demolished him. He was just not a competitor, he was one of those guys that just want a little workout. My whole point with the anti-BJJ thing is that before you make a descision on it perhaps you should spend time going to a bunch of different gyms and roll with a bunch of guys blue belt and higher and then see if you still think BJJ is useless.

I don't know how most schools are but at our school it's 2 years minimum to get your blue...someone who's blue should easily toss a 9 week student around regardless of size or power. I rolled with a guy a few months ago that was a good bit larger than me (about 40-50lbs.), he was pretty strong (lifts all the time), and had a couple months BJJ experience. I choked the guy out in around 45 seconds...and I mean completely unconcious. He said the gym he came from nobody could do anything with him and that he was top dog there, yet when he came to our gym our 145lbs. guys were giving him fits, the big boys were tapping him pretty easily.
That was just my partner, I did roll with the teacher and other guys but they were all bigger than me and in a fair ground fight one on one without any form of cheap shots there is no doubt all of them would kick my ass. But in a real fight? I'd say the teacher is the only one that was a big threat, and that is a bunch of ifs, if he gets me to the ground, if he can control me before I get a hold of his eyes/throat/groin then he beats me. One of the reasons I've stuck with kickboxing all these years is that its viable in a real fight, I don't have to put myself at great risk to defend myself and I can stop someone in a split second.

No doubt bjj can be lethal, but in order to use it lets go through the steps. You have to close the distance on a target which means you get close enough for him to hit you. You have to get a hold of him and take him to the floor all the while making sure he doesn't spin you into something and hurt yourself on the way down. Now your on the ground vulnerable to everyone around you, a small girl could easily KO you with a soccer kick to the head. A kick you would probably never see coming and you have no vision of your surroundings. Now you have to avoid getting your eyes/throat/groin attacked which would be very easy for the guy on the ground since you are right on top of him and easily within reach all the while setting up a submission. And now one guy is incapacitated, and you scramble to your feet so you can defend yourself from any other possible threats. That is a lot of risk even if your fast, way more risk than I would take unless I was absolutely forced to.

IRONMAN, if you read this tune in I would love to hear your opinion on this
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Last edited by xeberus : 10-05-2009 at 06:58 PM.
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Old 10-05-2009, 07:17 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Yes, but im talking probability and chance its easy to watch your surroundings from your feet. On the ground you are way less likely to see it coming and I can duck a bat or just run away, on the ground I can't do anything.

I was actually talking about someone else stomping or head kicking while your on the ground with the other person, you are vulnerable greatly not just to the person your on the ground with but your defenseless to everything else.




you got lucky because in that same situation 9 of 10 times you wouldn't remember what happened if you could still be capable of remembering. I've hit guys who had friends and they ended up not wanting any of it, but on the ground I very much doubt they would walk away. Especially if you just choked their friend out which is remarkable they didn't all jump in at once, which seems the obvious choice since your occupied and defenseless on the ground and their friend is being choked.



That was just my partner, I did roll with the teacher and other guys but they were all bigger than me and in a fair ground fight one on one without any form of cheap shots there is no doubt all of them would kick my ass. But in a real fight? I'd say the teacher is the only one that was a big threat, and that is a bunch of ifs, if he gets me to the ground, if he can control me before I get a hold of his eyes/throat/groin then he beats me. One of the reasons I've stuck with kickboxing all these years is that its viable in a real fight, I don't have to put myself at great risk to defend myself and I can stop someone in a split second.

No doubt bjj can be lethal, but in order to use it lets go through the steps. You have to close the distance on a target which means you get close enough for him to hit you. You have to get a hold of him and take him to the floor all the while making sure he doesn't spin you into something and hurt yourself on the way down. Now your on the ground vulnerable to everyone around you, a small girl could easily KO you with a soccer kick to the head. A kick you would probably never see coming and you have no vision of your surroundings. Now you have to avoid getting your eyes/throat/groin attacked which would be very easy for the guy on the ground since you are right on top of him and easily within reach all the while setting up a submission. And now one guy is incapacitated, and you scramble to your feet so you can defend yourself from any other possible threats. That is a lot of risk even if your fast, way more risk than I would take unless I was absolutely forced to.

IRONMAN, if you read this tune in I would love to hear your opinion on this
i agree with alot of what your saying but to be fair if your good at takedowns you wont be worried about being thrown around or how it gets to the ground

and honestly im not sure id fight with a guy who had buddies standing around unless i also had some friends near by

and why can i use my ground technique to control the flow on the ground and eye gouge you first and from a more dominant position
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