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Old 04-18-2011, 04:35 PM   #21 (permalink)
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If we're talking established, open weight, gi or no-gi, I think it has to look like this:


Roger Gracie

Alexander Ribeiro



They're simply leagues ahead of their competition recently.

If we're talking MMA fighters, taken out of the cage and put on a grappling mat, then it gets even easier to decide IMO:


Fabricio Werdum

Jake Shields





And if we're talking potential prodigies... Kron Gracie, period. 5 pan american championships, 2 world championships, 51 straight submissions from purple to brown belt, and I don't actually think he's lost a match yet. The kicker? The kid is like 21-22 years old.



As for MMA-applicable BJJ... that's a tough call I think. I'm sure Iron Man would be better at deciding that list.
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Old 04-18-2011, 06:04 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Best pure grapplers imo;

Roger Gracie
Braulio Estima
Andre Galvao
Ribeiro brothers
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Old 04-19-2011, 12:17 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by khoveraki View Post
If we're talking established, open weight, gi or no-gi, I think it has to look like this:


Roger Gracie

Alexander Ribeiro



They're simply leagues ahead of their competition recently.
I'm not sure about this list. After all, Xande's record is sporadic some of the time. He won the last ADCC in his weight class, but obviously Braulio went on to win the whole thing in the absolute division. I think he and Braulio are a terrific matchup in terms of competitive skills, and I don't know that Xande is a head and shoulders about Braulio at all.

I also think its hard to have this conversation without talking about Marcelo Garcia, Pablo Popovitch and Rafael Mendes. Mendes, especially, has been a force of nature lately. Obviously, in open weight he can't compete with guys like Xande or Roger, but from a technical standpoint he is an absolute monster.


Quote:
If we're talking MMA fighters, taken out of the cage and put on a grappling mat, then it gets even easier to decide IMO:


Fabricio Werdum

Jake Shields
I don't even know about Shields. Werdum is definitely a lock, though. He's a world class grappler, multiple time Abu Dhabi winner and world champion. He is a total machine in no-gi.

I think it's worth mentioning, though, that if you count Roger Gracie as an MMA fighter, he's obviously the best in a grappling context. In gi grappling, Roger really is a head and shoulders above the rest of the world right now.

You do have to mention Demian Maia, though. He's a world champion and a former ADCC champion. He has one of the most technical jiu-jitsu games in the world, and one of the best minds for detail. I love watching Demian compete, since I always come away learning something.


Quote:
And if we're talking potential prodigies... Kron Gracie, period. 5 pan american championships, 2 world championships, 51 straight submissions from purple to brown belt, and I don't actually think he's lost a match yet. The kicker? The kid is like 21-22 years old.
So, Kron is 22 and just got his blackbelt. Kron is well considered the next Rickson. I think that's right. I just don't know that he'll be a dominant blackbelt. Winning all the way through purplebelt and brownbelt is fine, though it is a huge leg up to be able to train full time, especially since many of the guys in those weightclasses can't.

The 51 straight submissions was a big deal and a real claim to fame for Kron. It's well deserved. But there's a difference between submitting brown and purplebelts in a world championship context and submitting relevant competition in his weightclass at the blackbelt level.

Depending on how he cuts and whether or not he's going to gain weight, he's either going to end up in a division with Marcelo Garcia and Pablo Popovitch or with Demian Maia and Ronaldo Jacare. It could be really rough for him at the top of the blackbelt level.

That said, I think that more promising for me is Vinny Magalhaes. His stint in the UFC may have given a bad impression to a lot of MMA fans, but this is a guy who finished third in both his weightclass and the open weight of ADCC, despite being in a division with Xande Ribeiro. He's 26, he's young and athletic and has a very aggressive, very dangerous style of grappling. He's performed well at Grapplers' Quest and is a four time world jiu-jitsu champion. I think he's going places, he just has to make sure that he competes in international competition consistently.


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As for MMA-applicable BJJ... that's a tough call I think. I'm sure Iron Man would be better at deciding that list.
Yeah, I don't know. Out of the current MMA guys, I have to admit I don't think there are really any guys who have great "jiu-jitsu for MMA" in the same way that a young Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira did, or Jeff Monson did.

In a lot of ways, I think Jeff Monson is still one of the best grapplers in terms of his transition to MMA. I think that, even if he goes to the ground with a lot of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu world champions, he can win those fights. He maintains top control, he doesn't allow scrambles and he's basically impossible to submit. He was submitted in MMA a few times early in his career, but it's been almost 15 years for those submissions, and even in grappling he's been very dominant in the "MMA style" of grappling.

I think there has to be something said for Ronaldo Jacare. This is a guy who has terrific takedowns, a great clinch and one of the most dominant top games in the world, even by the standards of international jiu-jitsu. One of the most dangerous things about Jacare, which we've seen time and time again in grappling competitions, is his ability to get the takedown and then just lock his opponent down. I think that's a really dangerous thing for a jiu-jitsu guy to be able to do, especially one as effective with his submissions as Jacare is.

I also think it's worthwhile to give credit to Jake Shields for having a very effective game in the same way that Monson and Jacare do, but Shields struggled a lot with Jason Miller, and so I don't think he's nearly where those two guys are.

In terms of great guard games, there are a lot of guys that are out there. I think Fabricio Werdum has probably the most problematic guard for any fighter in MMA. He's so good at controlling posture and using his arms to force his opponent to give something up.

There are a lot of lighter guys that are good at that stuff, also. But Werdum is worlds ahead of those guys.

I also suggest that, on the upcoming UFC 131 card, you all watch the fight between Shane Carwin and Jon Olav Einemo. Einemo is one of the top grapplers in the world, a former ADCC champion and the only man to ever beat Roger in that competition. He's a very dangerous and versatile guy, and if he can keep Carwin from knocking him out, it could be really fun to watch him go to work on the mat.
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Old 04-19-2011, 01:24 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Robson moura hands down. nobody has won what he has won.
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Old 05-14-2011, 10:57 AM   #25 (permalink)
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Rickson Gracie, do not think many people could argue with that. He is just out of the limelight at the moment!
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Old 05-14-2011, 05:56 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post

Yeah, I don't know. Out of the current MMA guys, I have to admit I don't think there are really any guys who have great "jiu-jitsu for MMA" in the same way that a young Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira did, or Jeff Monson did.
.
You have to remember though that guys like Maia looked great against modern day MMA fighters who are blackbelts in BJJ. Nogueira looked great mostly against strikers and wrestlers.


Plus the Nogs themselves said Maia has much better BJJ, Maia refers to their jitz as "pretty good."
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Old 05-14-2011, 11:17 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Robson moura hands down. nobody has won what he has won.
I think Robson is a great competitor, but he's a six-time world champion, compared to Roger's 8 (and that's not including the number of runner-up finishes Roger has posted) though it is interesting to note that Robson is has won worlds more times than Marcelo or Xande, who are 4 a piece.

Quantitatively, though, Roger is the man.

Also, I tend to think that he is qualitatively, as well. But that's more complicated. I think there's much less of an argument for Robson when we talk about the quality of his career record, as well as his versatility.

Also, he has had a really tough time adjusting his game to MMA.


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Rickson Gracie, do not think many people could argue with that. He is just out of the limelight at the moment!
Do you mean historically? Or among active competitors? I think you're wrong either way, but for different reasons depending on which you mean.

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Originally Posted by khoveraki View Post
You have to remember though that guys like Maia looked great against modern day MMA fighters who are blackbelts in BJJ. Nogueira looked great mostly against strikers and wrestlers.

Plus the Nogs themselves said Maia has much better BJJ, Maia refers to their jitz as "pretty good."
I'm not sure if this is supposed to be in contrast with what I said or an endorsement of it. I think that its great how many of the top tier jiu-jitsu guys are very respectful of each other, and how much they learn from each other.

If your point is that it may be a good idea to consider Maia among guys like Monson or Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, you may have a strong point there. Looking at Maia next to Nogueira does seem to put him in that same sort of category in terms of success in MMA, so that may be right.
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Old 05-16-2011, 05:42 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I don't follow non-MMA grappling so in that area I don't really know.

But in MMA I have look at who's got the credentials, and who's applied their grappling the best in MMA. The two that come to mind are Damien Maia and Jacare Souza. Shields comes to mind as well, I'd rank him up with those two if he'd completed a takedown on GSP, but since he failed I can't give him that much of nod. BJ Penn also comes to mind as an elite grappler in MMA.

I would give the edge to Maia in that in BJJ competitions he's beaten Souza 2-1 and he's shown better MMA grappling in his career overall. BJ Penn would be a close third though.
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Old 05-16-2011, 06:51 PM   #29 (permalink)
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For me it's clearly Shinya Aoki by far!

I have never seen anything which makes me believe that he is not the best pure grappler out there.

His resume speaks for himself too! No other grappler in the MMA world has a more impressive record than he does.

He's beaten every Champ there is, with just one exception and all this with his amazing abilitys on the ground only.
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Old 05-16-2011, 07:42 PM   #30 (permalink)
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For me it's clearly Shinya Aoki by far!

I have never seen anything which makes me believe that he is not the best pure grappler out there.

His resume speaks for himself too! No other grappler in the MMA world has a more impressive record than he does.

He's beaten every Champ there is, with just one exception and all this with his amazing abilitys on the ground only.

Gilbert nullified Aoki's BJJ easily in the cage.
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