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Who is the best grappler in the world

19K views 32 replies 20 participants last post by  DirtyHarry 
#1 · (Edited)
Who in your opinion is the best grappler in the world MMA or non MMA
 
#3 ·
I dont think its a fair question to ask because there are alot of skillful people out there that arent in the lime light. So when people ask stuff like this you cant really give a good answer. Alot of the BJJ and other types of grappeling dont impress me because its so common. There are some really good grapplers out there that use alot of small joint manipulation that is really effective and people dont practice alot. There are also grapplers out there that focus on pressure points to attain submitions and to escape submitions.

My dad was in the marines and he was stationed in Germany for awhile. My dad was really into judo back then and Judo is really big in europe. One of my dads favorite submitions was the triangle choke which is used alot in Judo. He told me that he participated in this big event in europe that was a tournament of some sort. So while he was there he said he ended up putting some one in a triangle choke and then they ended up escaping but they did it through nerve manipulation.

The guy hit a spot somewhere on his leg and then his leg relaxed and the guy got out of the triangle or some crap like that. Which goes to show you there are people out there that can use nerve manipulation to there advantage. Aside from some of the old practitioners of some dieing arts in japan and some chinese systems you dont really hear about that stuff.

Theres also a way to squeeze both of your temples with your thumb and pointer finger that can disorient you if you know how to hit the spot
 
#5 ·
It depends on what grappling rules you are referring to. BJJ rules, I'd say Jacare, Roger Gracie, Xande Ribiero, and Marcelo Garcia are the best right now.

Sub-Grappling would be Jacare, Roger, Marcelo Garcia, Xande, Lister, and Arona.

MMA grappling would be Mach Sakurai, BJ Penn, Arona, Lister, both Nogieras, and Busta. Actually there are alot of good judo grapplers entering MMA lately too. Nakumura, Yoshida, etc.

I don't keep up with the judo world, but you could look up the latest Judo world champions, and Olympians.

Also, don't forget Freestyle, and Greco Roman Wresling.
 
#6 ·
Ybot said:
It depends on what grappling rules you are referring to. BJJ rules, I'd say Jacare, Roger Gracie, Xande Ribiero, and Marcelo Garcia are the best right now.

Sub-Grappling would be Jacare, Roger, Marcelo Garcia, Xande, Lister, and Arona.

MMA grappling would be Mach Sakurai, BJ Penn, Arona, Lister, both Nogieras, and Busta. Actually there are alot of good judo grapplers entering MMA lately too. Nakumura, Yoshida, etc.

I don't keep up with the judo world, but you could look up the latest Judo world champions, and Olympians.

Also, don't forget Freestyle, and Greco Roman Wresling.
Yeah I forgot to mention that good post. Theres an old saying I love to use. He who sets the rules wins the game.
 
#9 ·
This is definitely a broad question. Here's my short list:

Jeff Monson
Dean Lister
Fedor (best *****)
Hidehiko Yoshida (best Judo)
Big Nog (best BJJ, at least from an MMA standpoint)
Josh Barnett (best wrestling)
BJ Penn (as far as lightweight grappling)
Xande Ribiero (strictly sub-grappling competition, but he's the best in my opinion)
Rulon Gardner (Olympic Gold Medalist: Roman Greco)
Roger Gracie (gotta be one on the list)

That's just my input.
 
#13 ·
I'd like to amend this list to include just one name:

Roger Gracie

His performance at Mundials this year was the greatest single performance by a grappler in the history of the sport. I have no doubt that the guy's the best that there is.

That said, I love watching his matchups with Xande Ribeiro (who I consider a close second).
 
#11 ·
Cael Sanderson and Dan Gable are the top freeStyle wrestlers in the history of the USA,although I"m not sure where freestyle wrestling would actually stack up in this discussion.

Although alot of former wrestlers not in these guys wrestling class have /are having succesful MMA careers.
 
#12 ·
ozz525 said:
Was Barnett a ncaa national champion for wrestling
No, but he's beaten a few on the ground (Randy Couture and Dan Severn). That's why he comes up. It's more of his principled application of wrestling and catch. If you want to talk college wrestlers in MMA then I would say Randleman, but actual wrestling ability in an octagon or ring, right now it's Barnett.
 
#17 ·
My bjj teacher Roberto "cyborg" abreu has beat Monson and Maia in bjj ... he's definitely at the top of his weight class
 
#21 ·
If we're talking established, open weight, gi or no-gi, I think it has to look like this:


Roger Gracie

Alexander Ribeiro



They're simply leagues ahead of their competition recently.

If we're talking MMA fighters, taken out of the cage and put on a grappling mat, then it gets even easier to decide IMO:


Fabricio Werdum

Jake Shields





And if we're talking potential prodigies... Kron Gracie, period. 5 pan american championships, 2 world championships, 51 straight submissions from purple to brown belt, and I don't actually think he's lost a match yet. The kicker? The kid is like 21-22 years old.



As for MMA-applicable BJJ... that's a tough call I think. I'm sure Iron Man would be better at deciding that list.
 
#23 ·
If we're talking established, open weight, gi or no-gi, I think it has to look like this:


Roger Gracie

Alexander Ribeiro



They're simply leagues ahead of their competition recently.
I'm not sure about this list. After all, Xande's record is sporadic some of the time. He won the last ADCC in his weight class, but obviously Braulio went on to win the whole thing in the absolute division. I think he and Braulio are a terrific matchup in terms of competitive skills, and I don't know that Xande is a head and shoulders about Braulio at all.

I also think its hard to have this conversation without talking about Marcelo Garcia, Pablo Popovitch and Rafael Mendes. Mendes, especially, has been a force of nature lately. Obviously, in open weight he can't compete with guys like Xande or Roger, but from a technical standpoint he is an absolute monster.

If we're talking MMA fighters, taken out of the cage and put on a grappling mat, then it gets even easier to decide IMO:


Fabricio Werdum

Jake Shields
I don't even know about Shields. Werdum is definitely a lock, though. He's a world class grappler, multiple time Abu Dhabi winner and world champion. He is a total machine in no-gi.

I think it's worth mentioning, though, that if you count Roger Gracie as an MMA fighter, he's obviously the best in a grappling context. In gi grappling, Roger really is a head and shoulders above the rest of the world right now.

You do have to mention Demian Maia, though. He's a world champion and a former ADCC champion. He has one of the most technical jiu-jitsu games in the world, and one of the best minds for detail. I love watching Demian compete, since I always come away learning something.

And if we're talking potential prodigies... Kron Gracie, period. 5 pan american championships, 2 world championships, 51 straight submissions from purple to brown belt, and I don't actually think he's lost a match yet. The kicker? The kid is like 21-22 years old.
So, Kron is 22 and just got his blackbelt. Kron is well considered the next Rickson. I think that's right. I just don't know that he'll be a dominant blackbelt. Winning all the way through purplebelt and brownbelt is fine, though it is a huge leg up to be able to train full time, especially since many of the guys in those weightclasses can't.

The 51 straight submissions was a big deal and a real claim to fame for Kron. It's well deserved. But there's a difference between submitting brown and purplebelts in a world championship context and submitting relevant competition in his weightclass at the blackbelt level.

Depending on how he cuts and whether or not he's going to gain weight, he's either going to end up in a division with Marcelo Garcia and Pablo Popovitch or with Demian Maia and Ronaldo Jacare. It could be really rough for him at the top of the blackbelt level.

That said, I think that more promising for me is Vinny Magalhaes. His stint in the UFC may have given a bad impression to a lot of MMA fans, but this is a guy who finished third in both his weightclass and the open weight of ADCC, despite being in a division with Xande Ribeiro. He's 26, he's young and athletic and has a very aggressive, very dangerous style of grappling. He's performed well at Grapplers' Quest and is a four time world jiu-jitsu champion. I think he's going places, he just has to make sure that he competes in international competition consistently.

As for MMA-applicable BJJ... that's a tough call I think. I'm sure Iron Man would be better at deciding that list.
Yeah, I don't know. Out of the current MMA guys, I have to admit I don't think there are really any guys who have great "jiu-jitsu for MMA" in the same way that a young Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira did, or Jeff Monson did.

In a lot of ways, I think Jeff Monson is still one of the best grapplers in terms of his transition to MMA. I think that, even if he goes to the ground with a lot of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu world champions, he can win those fights. He maintains top control, he doesn't allow scrambles and he's basically impossible to submit. He was submitted in MMA a few times early in his career, but it's been almost 15 years for those submissions, and even in grappling he's been very dominant in the "MMA style" of grappling.

I think there has to be something said for Ronaldo Jacare. This is a guy who has terrific takedowns, a great clinch and one of the most dominant top games in the world, even by the standards of international jiu-jitsu. One of the most dangerous things about Jacare, which we've seen time and time again in grappling competitions, is his ability to get the takedown and then just lock his opponent down. I think that's a really dangerous thing for a jiu-jitsu guy to be able to do, especially one as effective with his submissions as Jacare is.

I also think it's worthwhile to give credit to Jake Shields for having a very effective game in the same way that Monson and Jacare do, but Shields struggled a lot with Jason Miller, and so I don't think he's nearly where those two guys are.

In terms of great guard games, there are a lot of guys that are out there. I think Fabricio Werdum has probably the most problematic guard for any fighter in MMA. He's so good at controlling posture and using his arms to force his opponent to give something up.

There are a lot of lighter guys that are good at that stuff, also. But Werdum is worlds ahead of those guys.

I also suggest that, on the upcoming UFC 131 card, you all watch the fight between Shane Carwin and Jon Olav Einemo. Einemo is one of the top grapplers in the world, a former ADCC champion and the only man to ever beat Roger in that competition. He's a very dangerous and versatile guy, and if he can keep Carwin from knocking him out, it could be really fun to watch him go to work on the mat.
 
#27 ·
I think Robson is a great competitor, but he's a six-time world champion, compared to Roger's 8 (and that's not including the number of runner-up finishes Roger has posted) though it is interesting to note that Robson is has won worlds more times than Marcelo or Xande, who are 4 a piece.

Quantitatively, though, Roger is the man.

Also, I tend to think that he is qualitatively, as well. But that's more complicated. I think there's much less of an argument for Robson when we talk about the quality of his career record, as well as his versatility.

Also, he has had a really tough time adjusting his game to MMA.

Rickson Gracie, do not think many people could argue with that. He is just out of the limelight at the moment!
Do you mean historically? Or among active competitors? I think you're wrong either way, but for different reasons depending on which you mean.

You have to remember though that guys like Maia looked great against modern day MMA fighters who are blackbelts in BJJ. Nogueira looked great mostly against strikers and wrestlers.

Plus the Nogs themselves said Maia has much better BJJ, Maia refers to their jitz as "pretty good."
I'm not sure if this is supposed to be in contrast with what I said or an endorsement of it. I think that its great how many of the top tier jiu-jitsu guys are very respectful of each other, and how much they learn from each other.

If your point is that it may be a good idea to consider Maia among guys like Monson or Antonio Rodrigo Nogueira, you may have a strong point there. Looking at Maia next to Nogueira does seem to put him in that same sort of category in terms of success in MMA, so that may be right.
 
#28 ·
I don't follow non-MMA grappling so in that area I don't really know.

But in MMA I have look at who's got the credentials, and who's applied their grappling the best in MMA. The two that come to mind are Damien Maia and Jacare Souza. Shields comes to mind as well, I'd rank him up with those two if he'd completed a takedown on GSP, but since he failed I can't give him that much of nod. BJ Penn also comes to mind as an elite grappler in MMA.

I would give the edge to Maia in that in BJJ competitions he's beaten Souza 2-1 and he's shown better MMA grappling in his career overall. BJ Penn would be a close third though.
 
#31 ·
I don't follow non-MMA grappling so in that area I don't really know.

But in MMA I have look at who's got the credentials, and who's applied their grappling the best in MMA. The two that come to mind are Damien Maia and Jacare Souza. Shields comes to mind as well, I'd rank him up with those two if he'd completed a takedown on GSP, but since he failed I can't give him that much of nod. BJ Penn also comes to mind as an elite grappler in MMA.
I'm assuming that you are basing this strictly on MMA performances. I suppose that's fine, but there are a lot of guys that are around the same level as these guys in terms of applying BJJ in MMA competition. Seems fine, to me, to compare a guy like Maia to a guy like Nogueira in terms of MMA performances, but for me style plays a major role, as does technical ability.

I end up thinking that, in terms of technical ability on the ground, watching a Jeff Monson or a Fabricio Werdum is a lot more impressive than Shields or B.J. Not that those guys aren't great, but I don't see the same level of technical precision.

I would give the edge to Maia in that in BJJ competitions he's beaten Souza 2-1 and he's shown better MMA grappling in his career overall. BJ Penn would be a close third though.
I'm curious about where you're getting that statistic, because I'm fairly sure they've competed more than three times, between gi and no-gi competition.

For me it's clearly Shinya Aoki by far!

I have never seen anything which makes me believe that he is not the best pure grappler out there.
Did you watch the Melendez fight?

His resume speaks for himself too! No other grappler in the MMA world has a more impressive record than he does.
Really? There are plenty of other guys who have dominant records on the mat. Monson, Werdum and Arona have all beaten world class grapplers multiple times, something which can't be said for Aoki.

The best grappler he fought (Sotiropoulos) he beat by DQ. Compared to someone like Monson, who dominated Ricco Rodriguez, Mark Kerr, Anthony Perosh and Pe De Pano (all former ADCC competitors, all world class pure grapplers), I find Aoki a lot less impressive.

He's beaten every Champ there is, with just one exception and all this with his amazing abilitys on the ground only.
He hasn't beaten any of the champs in his weightclass. He beat Joachim Hansen twice and Eddie Alvarez. Those guys are not slouches, at all, but they were not running the weightclass at the time. The #1 spot at lightweight has never definitively belonged to Aoki, and that conversation can't even be worth having until Aoki beats one of the UFC champions (either at 145 or 155, depending on whether he can make the cut to featherweight at all) and beats Melendez. Both seem unlikely.
 
#29 ·
For me it's clearly Shinya Aoki by far!

I have never seen anything which makes me believe that he is not the best pure grappler out there.

His resume speaks for himself too! No other grappler in the MMA world has a more impressive record than he does.

He's beaten every Champ there is, with just one exception and all this with his amazing abilitys on the ground only.
 
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