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Old 05-26-2010, 06:03 PM   #41 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Yeah, see, I don't think that's the important part of mastery. All of those are fundamental steps of osoto gari (something that you have to learn to execute the technique even against an incompetent opponent) the real nuances aren't really a part of the uchi komi. I'm not using "nuances" to refer to the form of the technique itself, but to the functional implementation, the weighting, the setups and the chains of counter throws.

I agree that a real master of judo will have awareness of a huge number of throws. He'll know th technique. He can drill uchi komi with any of them.

But that's not what expertise is.

I can teach the fundamentals of a triangle, even the subtle parts like properly gripping the foot, hipping out to break the posture, adjusting angles to finish the submission, etc. The nuances to the technique aren't, according to my use, in that demonstration.

They're in the effective use of baiting, understanding the setups and so on.

Masters are still, by nature of competition backgrounds, going to understand some techniques at the expert level, and not others.
Well , if you are talking about setups there are nuances upon nuances of how to do them for Judo throws. I don't even wanna go there.
That's the difference between ground moves and throws. Submission by itself is not difficult. But, setting it up is. Throw by itself is difficult to do, let alone to set it up.
You can do an osoto gari without most of these details. it will be sloppy, but it can be done. But in order to do it against bigger, stronger, heavier guy you have to know these details.

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Honestly, I don't think that's what he's doing.

I have a very high opinion of Yamashita (though not as high an opinion as many of my training partners) so I'm a little bit biased, but it doesn't seem like he's forcing the technique as much as he's adjusting the position on his left leg in order to effectively trip the opponent to the mat.

It's actually not an unusual adjustment that I've seen in jiu-jitsu players who don't break the balance with the initial throwing motion of osoto gari. It's not muscular, though.
If you don't outbalance the guy, you can't throw him except with force. The very reason he didn't outbalance him makes it a sloppy osoto gari. If he had good kuzushi Rouge would end up on one leg and then flown through the air. Like this:



Quote:
He also trains with Erik Paulson (who gave him his blackbelt) who's a big fan of gi grappling and a student of Rigan Machado.

I'm not saying that Barnett is a gi grappler. Clearly, he's not. But there's some substantial influence in his game. Paulson is a major influence in Barnett's grappling game (as anyone who's seen Barnett fight knows) and Paulson's style, albeit a little bit different, is heavily influenced by both Rigan and Yorinaga Nakamura, who both have major gi-grappling backgrounds.


Sure, but to even be competitive in that weightclass is impressive.

Frankly, I have a lot more respect for the grappling game of someone like Barnett, who manages to work his way through a substantial open weight division in a substantial grappling tournament to lose an interesting and relatively competitive match to a world class grappler like Romulo Barral than, say, the grappling game of someone like GSP, who shows up at Abu Dhabi and gets tooled in the second round.

Most of the guys we think of as grapplers in MMA aren't competitive in gi grappling. Barnett could be, assuming he cared enough to compete with any sort of consistency. St. Pierre, Sonnen, Okami and many others, realistically, aren't capable of competing at that level of grappling.
I'm a fan of Josh, even though he likes to shit over Judo and BJJ. His grappling is excellent. I agree with you on him vs GSP, Sonnen, Okami. The only reason which made me surprised to see him getting a blackbelt is the thought:"This guy doesn't train with the gi. He couldn't teach me gi gripping, setups, chokes." This is because I believed that blackbelt must be able to teach me those things.
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Old 05-26-2010, 07:38 PM   #42 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
Well , if you are talking about setups there are nuances upon nuances of how to do them for Judo throws. I don't even wanna go there.
Which is sort of my point. The level of nuance surrounding simpler techniques like o goshi is massive. Those are the things that we typically refer to when we talk about "experts."

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That's the difference between ground moves and throws. Submission by itself is not difficult. But, setting it up is. Throw by itself is difficult to do, let alone to set it up.

You can do an osoto gari without most of these details. it will be sloppy, but it can be done. But in order to do it against bigger, stronger, heavier guy you have to know these details.
Again, I think you're overestimating the difference between submissions and throws. As someone now reasonably well versed in both, I feel comfortable acknowledging that they're pretty similar with respect to the learning curve.

It's challenging to learn o goshi or osoto gari in a way that they work effectively and efficiently. No more difficult than learning an armbar.

You can learn them in a way that leads your opponent to fall down (which is to say, you get a throw) in the same way you can learn an armbar that makes your opponent tap. That doesn't mean it's a good technique.

I see (and train with) plenty of judoka who would say that they've "learned" armbars in the same way that I've had to "learn" o goshi. They simply haven't. They still lack fundamentals of the technique (pinching knees together, proper angling, effective weighting with the feet) in the same way most of the jiu-jitsu guys I train with lack fundamental movements in o goshi.

They have an idea of the contour of the technique. They recognize it. Hell, they can use it. They don't really know the techniques.

I honestly don't think that throws or submissions are really different with regards to difficulty. I just think that the standards in judo for what constitutes a sufficient submission are much lower.


Quote:
If you don't outbalance the guy, you can't throw him except with force. The very reason he didn't outbalance him makes it a sloppy osoto gari. If he had good kuzushi Rouge would end up on one leg and then flown through the air. Like this:
I realize that's the traditional form for osoto gari. My point was that it wasn't a traditional osoto gari. It also wasn't muscled through.

This is where we get into something really odd about grappling, insofar as the line between when a technique goes from being a throw to being a trip, and when osoto gari stops being osoto gari.

If you look at the technique, he's clearly engaging his upper body, but it's not arm wrestling. He's adjusting position on the leg, which is the very definition of a modified situational application in a technique like osoto gari.


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I'm a fan of Josh, even though he likes to shit over Judo and BJJ. His grappling is excellent. I agree with you on him vs GSP, Sonnen, Okami. The only reason which made me surprised to see him getting a blackbelt is the thought:"This guy doesn't train with the gi. He couldn't teach me gi gripping, setups, chokes." This is because I believed that blackbelt must be able to teach me those things.
Yeah, I don't really agree with him getting a BJJ blackbelt, just because I think you have to really identify as a BJJ guy in order to have one.

There are plenty of guys I don't think know gi gripping or gi chokes. Most of the 10th Planet guys are trained almost exclusively in no gi (it's considered a no gi system) but I still consider them deserving of their ranks in terms of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Eddie Bravo really can't teach those things. He's still a master insofar as his ability to teach the fundamentals of a large number of techniques well, and a smaller number of techniques incredibly well.

Don't look at the master on the basis of what he may not be able to teach you. That's less relevant, in my opinion. I don't really want to learn gi chokes from Barnett anyway. I don't really think GSP is really cut out to teach me about the guard game. But if I were studying under those guys, I'd want to learn about the things that they are really experts in.

When I'm studying with sensei Imamura, I make a point of learning as much about the fundamentals as I can, in every technique, because I'm still early in my training, but as I've come along, I've found that it's especially important for me to savor what he has to teach about (a) foot sweeps, (b) chokes, (c) pins and (d) movement and setups. Those are the things that he knows best, and even though he's proficient in everything else, those other moments are hugely important.
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Old 05-26-2010, 08:13 PM   #43 (permalink)
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Again, I think you're overestimating the difference between submissions and throws. As someone now reasonably well versed in both, I feel comfortable acknowledging that they're pretty similar with respect to the learning curve.

It's challenging to learn o goshi or osoto gari in a way that they work effectively and efficiently. No more difficult than learning an armbar.

You can learn them in a way that leads your opponent to fall down (which is to say, you get a throw) in the same way you can learn an armbar that makes your opponent tap. That doesn't mean it's a good technique.

I see (and train with) plenty of judoka who would say that they've "learned" armbars in the same way that I've had to "learn" o goshi. They simply haven't. They still lack fundamentals of the technique (pinching knees together, proper angling, effective weighting with the feet) in the same way most of the jiu-jitsu guys I train with lack fundamental movements in o goshi.

They have an idea of the contour of the technique. They recognize it. Hell, they can use it. They don't really know the techniques.

I honestly don't think that throws or submissions are really different with regards to difficulty. I just think that the standards in judo for what constitutes a sufficient submission are much lower.
Maybe the last sentence is true. I've never had problem learning submissions(the setups and transitions, yes), but I've always had problems learning throws, especially setups since we don't actually learn them per se, we learn combos. Open up your opponent with one thing to set him up for the other.

Quote:
I realize that's the traditional form for osoto gari. My point was that it wasn't a traditional osoto gari. It also wasn't muscled through.

This is where we get into something really odd about grappling, insofar as the line between when a technique goes from being a throw to being a trip, and when osoto gari stops being osoto gari.

If you look at the technique, he's clearly engaging his upper body, but it's not arm wrestling. He's adjusting position on the leg, which is the very definition of a modified situational application in a technique like osoto gari.
Well this is the point I can't agree with unfortunately.
He is using his upper body, it is osoto gari, he is adjusting to finish, but if he had better kuzushi the opponents leg would be isolated and it would require much less strength. More strength used=sloppier technique. But he is Yamashita, even without good kuzushi, he throws( or takes down which was the case here).



Quote:
Yeah, I don't really agree with him getting a BJJ blackbelt, just because I think you have to really identify as a BJJ guy in order to have one.

There are plenty of guys I don't think know gi gripping or gi chokes. Most of the 10th Planet guys are trained almost exclusively in no gi (it's considered a no gi system) but I still consider them deserving of their ranks in terms of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu.

Eddie Bravo really can't teach those things. He's still a master insofar as his ability to teach the fundamentals of a large number of techniques well, and a smaller number of techniques incredibly well.

Don't look at the master on the basis of what he may not be able to teach you. That's less relevant, in my opinion. I don't really want to learn gi chokes from Barnett anyway. I don't really think GSP is really cut out to teach me about the guard game. But if I were studying under those guys, I'd want to learn about the things that they are really experts in.

When I'm studying with sensei Imamura, I make a point of learning as much about the fundamentals as I can, in every technique, because I'm still early in my training, but as I've come along, I've found that it's especially important for me to savor what he has to teach about (a) foot sweeps, (b) chokes, (c) pins and (d) movement and setups. Those are the things that he knows best, and even though he's proficient in everything else, those other moments are hugely important.
You have a point.

What's the full name of your sensei in Judo?
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Old 05-26-2010, 08:39 PM   #44 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
Maybe the last sentence is true. I've never had problem learning submissions(the setups and transitions, yes), but I've always had problems learning throws, especially setups since we don't actually learn them per se, we learn combos. Open up your opponent with one thing to set him up for the other.
Well, that may actually be a problem with judging because of a difference in the methodology of teaching. What they're teaching, if they're teaching combinations, is going to be more difficult, because there's more going on.

But, like I said, since you have a judo background, I'd bet that your instructors are also more focussed on the throws than the submissions. Obviously, this is hard to judge from the inside, but I'm trying to make a point about the stylistic differences.

Even where I train, where we only learn one throw at a time for uchi komi, which is really the basic way of drilling it, a lot like a submission gets drilled when its first taught in BJJ programs, the focus and detail that the instructors are aware of with the throws is much higher, just because competitive judo is much more aware of how to make a throw effective (because of that difference between the scoring of an effective an ineffective throw) and because the throws are seen as more important.

The fundamentals of the submission game that exist in most BJJ academies, realistically, aren't taught in most judo programs, from what I've seen. So I think it's also that there's a different standard, which is much higher for throws and lower for submissions.


Quote:
Well this is the point I can't agree with unfortunately.
He is using his upper body, it is osoto gari, he is adjusting to finish, but if he had better kuzushi the opponents leg would be isolated and it would require much less strength. More strength used=sloppier technique. But he is Yamashita, even without good kuzushi, he throws( or takes down which was the case here).
Yeah, again, that's just a technical difference. And I don't mind disagreeing on that. It doesn't seem particularly relevant to the discussion, as I think my initial point was made.

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You have a point.

What's the full name of your sensei in Judo?
Haruo Imamura.
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Old 05-26-2010, 09:04 PM   #45 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Well, that may actually be a problem with judging because of a difference in the methodology of teaching. What they're teaching, if they're teaching combinations, is going to be more difficult, because there's more going on.

But, like I said, since you have a judo background, I'd bet that your instructors are also more focussed on the throws than the submissions. Obviously, this is hard to judge from the inside, but I'm trying to make a point about the stylistic differences.

Even where I train, where we only learn one throw at a time for uchi komi, which is really the basic way of drilling it, a lot like a submission gets drilled when its first taught in BJJ programs, the focus and detail that the instructors are aware of with the throws is much higher, just because competitive judo is much more aware of how to make a throw effective (because of that difference between the scoring of an effective an ineffective throw) and because the throws are seen as more important.

The fundamentals of the submission game that exist in most BJJ academies, realistically, aren't taught in most judo programs, from what I've seen. So I think it's also that there's a different standard, which is much higher for throws and lower for submissions.




Yeah, again, that's just a technical difference. And I don't mind disagreeing on that. It doesn't seem particularly relevant to the discussion, as I think my initial point was made.



Haruo Imamura.
Well, my club does more newaza than a regular club. We do groundwork at least once week, with 3 trainings per week. And I'm very glad because of that. The rule system favor throws, that's one of the reasons they are privileged. the other reason maybe the fact that there aren't as many submissions today in Judo. But I learned submissions from other sources too. I have Gracie Academy videos, in fact I credit Rorion Gracie of teaching me triangle. And even with the details I saw, I still was able to pick up submissions faster than any throw.
I don't know what are the fundamentals that you speak of, but some of the rules take away a lot from the game. No hands on face for example. it's a lot more difficult to sink a choke with that rule.
Anyway, I can't wait to start learning BJJ...
About your sensei, I looked him up, you are privileged to learn from such a guy.
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Old 05-27-2010, 12:11 AM   #46 (permalink)
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Yeah, I train standup at a shotokan school in Fresno, and I can say that I"ve seen this difference there.

One of the things with Karate styles, though, as well as many other styles, is that having a blackbelt does not indicate mastery of the system. Often they're the preferred students in the dojo, but not masters.

By contrast, having a blackbelt in BJJ is considered a mark of mastery and is generally only earned by victories in major competitions.

It's a different approach to the ranking system. Outside of the largest programs in the world (Alliance/ATT in Florida, Academia Gracie in L.A., Nova Unaio in Brazil, etc.) there are very few instances of communities of blackbelts. Most blackbelts are autonomous, which is a similarly different understanding than Karate, which regards having a blackbelt often as still being a student of the instructor.
I think it depends on the dojo. I find that in a McDojo, as long as you pay or hang out for long enough, you get a black belt. While in other, legitimate schools, students who show potential and apptitude recieve a black belt. I try to shy away from any school that has a brochure stating "Any student can become a Black Belt in 2 to 4 years!" I call McDojo when I see something like that!

I prefer the old school way that goes all the way back to Gishin Funakoshi:

You understand the mechanics of and can perform every kihon and kata exactly with nearest to perfect form possible? You win every time you engage in kumite? Congratulations, you are a third degree Brown Belt....

You are an adept practitioner of everything above, and represent the ideas and concepts set forth in the 20 Precepts and Dojo Kun? Congratulations, now you are a 1st Dan Black Belt.
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