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Old 08-24-2010, 07:49 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Grappling for MMA: The Turtle (Attacking)

It's been a long time since I did one of these columns, but I was talking to a friend who was saying that I should write about more positional stuff. Attacking from the turtle is something I've been working on constantly both in a judo and a Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu context for the last six months or so, and I figure it's good to write down the stuff I've been working on as a resource.

The structure of this post is a little different than the previous entries in this series, but part of it is that I think this format is a little better.


Basic Principles for Attacking the Turtle

Firstly, it's very common for people to over-commit their position in the turtle. They will attack the rear naked choke aggressively, or try and jump their hooks in, and they will end up losing control of the position when their sternum is over their opponent's head. You can't establish good control with underhooks from that position. So make sure that, when your opponent is in the turtle position, you keep your hips behind their hips, and don't let them go past the middle of the back.

Secondly, people feel that goal of the turtle has to be to transition to the back. That's not necessarily true. If you recognize that there are other positions that you can transition to from the turtle, you're far more likely to have success hitting those options than you are just attacking the back, since everyone is defending the hooks.

Finally, be aware that your opponent is going to be looking for your legs, because they know that the hooks are coming. What the means is that you have to maintain control independent of hooks and the hips, because as you look for the hooks, you're going to have to move your hips to other locations on their body, or even relieve the pressure from the hip entirely, and if you don't have good control (preferably with the overhook-underhook grip) it's very easy to lose the position.

First Technique

The first technique that I want to mention is different than the first technique that they'll teach in pretty much any grappling class. The standard for attacking the turtle is the basic attack where one establishes the over-under, sits back, slides a leg under to establish one hook and then pulls the opponent on top to sink in the other hook.

That's a standard attack, but the one that I've found is best is to think about the ways that are most common for people to defend from the turtle. Most of the time, your opponent is going to either extend their inside leg and try to slip back to guard, or do a basic forward roll and try and swing over and back to guard. These are the two standard escapes.

You can block both of these by focussing on that first principle. Make sure you stay low, use your hands to block the hips as well as keeping your hips against them and low on the back. As your opponent starts to move, which they will if the weight is lower because they'll feel less pressure, control the legs.

First, from the standard defense, when the opponent extends the inside leg, grab it with your inside arm. In gi grappling, it makes sense to grab the gi around the thigh, then step over the back of the leg with your inside leg as they start to turn. Notice that you are going to be very low on the back in this technique, because your hip is basically going to be against the back of your opponents thigh.

This position, though, as your opponent turns, will put you in a very high, open half-guard. If you slip your leg that would be inside the half-guard quickly or if you establish the underhook, you can establish a solid side-control position.

Second Technique

If your opponent tries to roll by swinging around the outside leg, which seems like the escape I see the most in competition, you can block it simply by grabbing the belt. If your opponent is in the middle of their gramby when you get the grip, you can grab their arm across the body with your ouside arm and bring it through as if it were a failed hip throw attempt. Drive the arm that is acting as the block for the hip through to push them over and pull the sleeve and you can come up in a solid side control position.

These two really are the fundamentals of a good turtle position. Most attacking positions let you set the pace for a grappling match of an MMA fight, but the turtle really doesn't give that freedom. The guy on the bottom is the guy that has to make the first move and decide where that fight is going to play out. Fighting from the top of turtle is counter-intuitive that way.

Hopefully this is helpful for people. I realize there's not very much MMA knowledge in here, but that's not really the context of the turtle I've been dealing with. Maybe there will have to be a part two to clarify the practical elements of this stuff in MMA.

Let me know if there are thoughts, questions, corrections or requests.
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Old 09-16-2010, 02:37 AM   #2 (permalink)
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I'm guessing this is for the pure Grappling type competition as kneeing the body is probubly the best answer for this defence in Mixed?
I have had good sucess attacking the position low, going after the legs basically.
I do it a bit differently depending on what is in front of me as far as my opponent goes but I'll either try to wrap the far leg low and pressure his hips with my chest or the near leg and basically pressure his ass with my chest to force either him forward or the leg I have back so it is straight and move to crossbody depending on how he reacts, if he turns onto his back I'm basically there and if he just lays there as if he's going to try to reestablish his turtle I'll keep heavy on the straightned leg and try to roll him over myself
It's pretty late so I'm hoping I've described what I'm trying to describe, if not hopefully I can clear it up next time I post.
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Old 09-16-2010, 03:19 AM   #3 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BearInTheClinch View Post
I'm guessing this is for the pure Grappling type competition as kneeing the body is probubly the best answer for this defence in Mixed?
Honestly, I've found that throwing the knees from the kneeling position is actually very problematic. In order to deliver a really crippling blow, you basically have to stand up. If you're quick, and your opponent is slow, you can make this work, but otherwise, it's pretty difficult to maintain pressure and (as a result) position control while throwing strikes with the knee.

Quote:
I have had good sucess attacking the position low, going after the legs basically.
I do it a bit differently depending on what is in front of me as far as my opponent goes but I'll either try to wrap the far leg low and pressure his hips with my chest or the near leg and basically pressure his ass with my chest to force either him forward or the leg I have back so it is straight and move to crossbody depending on how he reacts, if he turns onto his back I'm basically there and if he just lays there as if he's going to try to reestablish his turtle I'll keep heavy on the straightned leg and try to roll him over myself
It's pretty late so I'm hoping I've described what I'm trying to describe, if not hopefully I can clear it up next time I post.
Both of these are pretty common attacks that I see from freestyle wrestlers, and there's a reason that they're common: they work.

A lot of the time, if you end up straightening his leg out, you're going to be working to pass from there, and that's fine, but I'd rather come up in side-control than come up with legs in front of me, which is why the attack revolves around the hips: so that you're coming up above the legs.
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Old 09-16-2010, 06:45 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IronMan View Post
Honestly, I've found that throwing the knees from the kneeling position is actually very problematic. In order to deliver a really crippling blow, you basically have to stand up. If you're quick, and your opponent is slow, you can make this work, but otherwise, it's pretty difficult to maintain pressure and (as a result) position control while throwing strikes with the knee.



Both of these are pretty common attacks that I see from freestyle wrestlers, and there's a reason that they're common: they work.

A lot of the time, if you end up straightening his leg out, you're going to be working to pass from there, and that's fine, but I'd rather come up in side-control than come up with legs in front of me, which is why the attack revolves around the hips: so that you're coming up above the legs.
yah I like the first one better because you just circle around and are in crossbody but sometimes the guy's legs are so big I can't get the grip I want for both legs
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Old 10-01-2010, 04:36 PM   #5 (permalink)
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I like these techniques and good write-up. There are a TON of offensive moves against the turtle.

Another transition to the back that I use a lot goes like this: Capture around the hips with both arms as to hug your partner then placing knee to knee hip to hip facing the same direction as your partner, with outer leg flagged out pulling partner onto your base.

This is the control position and is advantageous if your partner feels threatened and tries to roll, spin, sit-out, or what have you. As you have their hips controlled and are in a more mobile position.

If they continue to turtle: You may use the leverage of your combined arms and shoulder/torso rotation to drive their elbow apart from knee and in doing so place your once flagged out leg in between gaining the hook. At this point you are now above them and may proceed to gain your second hook. Be sure to stay tight as if they decide to roll you will stay with them. Once both hooks are established you will work for the over/under seat belt grip.

There are three advantages to this method: 1. You have a very dominant control position to start out with 2. You can dictate more effectively where you wind up on their back (high/low) 3. It is a good method against someone who is very tight in their turtle.

Maybe this is a pretty standard transition but I haven't really seen it very often.
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