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-   -   Rate these submissions (http://www.mmaforum.com/grappling-technique/85370-rate-these-submissions.html)

Genbassy 12-15-2010 09:35 AM

Rate these submissions
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dVKII3E6VMQ

rate and comment

IronMan 12-18-2010 04:04 AM

You can probably get these on people who have no idea what they're doing, but against any reasonably experienced grappler, even without experience in leglocks, these aren't going to work.

I'm sort of notorious for my massive posts, so I guess I'll just start at the beginning and walk through why they're problematic. I don't know what rating system you want me to use, and there's isn't an objective one anyway, so I figure I'll just walk through my concerns.

Leglock #1: Stepping over into an achilles lock

You are actually walking into a flower sweep. In order of this to work, you're opponent has to put up no resistance, he has to not rotate onto his side (which experienced grapplers start to naturally do when an opponent steps up to turn, from dealing with the basic closed guard passes) and he has to not challenge you for position while you're doing the technique.

Against an opponent who doesn't know how to use his guard, this can probably work, but you're basically relying on him (a) only having a closed guard and (b) not knowing how to respond with that closed guard when an opponent tries to pass.

Leglock #2: Hands-Free Kneebar from the Lockdown

I'm actually not sure that this will work even against inexperienced grapplers. If you have really amazing dexterity in your feet, you can actually grip the achilles tendon with the bridge of your foot and that really enables this move, but even then, the gut reaction that most people have it to pull the heel in towards their butt, especially if they were just in the lockdown,, and that effectively counters this submission.

Also, going for risky stuff like this when you have a really deep lockdown (and the lockdown the instructor gets is really textbook; it's really solid) is a good way to get the guard passed.

Leglock #3: "Toe-Hold" from the Scarf-Hold

I have no idea why an opponent would defend the scarf-hold by sticking their foot in like they were trying to take the back. It seems un-intuitive, but it also seems like a horribly uncomfortable position that you would try and get out of almost immediately, even if you couldn't escape the scarf-hold.

I can see a beginner trying this, but I think basically anyone who's competing has probably worked out that this is not a legitimate escape for the scarf-hold. I don't know why anyone would attempt it more than once.

Leglock #4: Rolling Kneebar from Inside the Guard

This one is actually a classic. People who like to surprise opponents love this technique. I've never understood why. Unless you're Masakazu Imanari and you're going for a leglock to finish the fight anyway, if you get to this position, you should just pass guard, it's way better.

That said, it's a pretty good instruction on the rolling kneebar. I love that he comes in with the heel in his armpit. It's the best way to finish the kneebar. He comes in a little higher when he rolls than I like to (I like to stay really tight to the hips with leglocks, because of experiences with squirmy opponents) but he's a lot taller than I am, so it's understandable.

Leglock #5: Calf-Slicer from Standing

I actually got a little annoyed with this one, because he actually just screws this one up. I'm sure he's a good instructor, and a smart grappler, but if you don't have any thing pinning your opponents hip, you lose the calf-slicer and get your guard passed.

Personally, I take my outside leg and wrap it over the hip, angled so that I can triangle around the knee. I do this move when opponents are trying to pass guard on me all the time (in situations where it's legal, which isn't nearly as often as I'd like) and it has a great success rate off of the back, but you have to apply pressure to the hip, otherwise there's no submission

From the position that he falls back into, his training partner could easily just follow him up and come up in half guard or mount. His training partner actually has to lie flaccid to not follow him up, because the momentum of the topside version from inside that no-gi spider guard actually pulls him that way. This was the worst one of the bunch, which is sad, because it's a great submission.

Leglock #6: The Rolling Toe-Hold from Standing

This is a professional wrestling classic, especially in Japan. It's a cool move. I don't have any complaints about the way he teaches it, except that I've never seen this move work in competition. One of my favorite guys to watch in the world of BJJ was Tyrone Glover, and I've seen him do it in demos before, but I've never seen it work in competition.

It's not impossible, and it's worth going for, especially if you have great leglocks and you're really comfortable in positions where you can easily attack the legs.

Generally, I've got to say I like the message about leglocks. He's right that they intimidate people, and there's basically a moratorium on them in the lower levels of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which I understand but have always resented, personally, as someone who has really taken to leglocks and found them to be a really great tool for learning how to control limbs when you're doing submissions. But his technique is not that great. Unfortunately, there aren't that many guys who teach leglocks who are really great at them.

TraMaI 01-12-2011 09:04 PM

I, like Ironman, am going to break this down by submission.

Step over leg lock:
Like Ironman said, this requires little to no resistance on your opponent's part. There's no force/counter-force to this and it's really all muscle and quickness. The other thing this relies on is your opponent constantly keeping his guard closed, as opposed to opening it as soon as you being to rotate. Ironically enough, this move also sets you up for leg locks...

Knee bar from half guard down (hands free kneebar, as Ironman put it):

This is really a sort of flimsy submission. All your opponent needs to do it break free of your feet or put his knee to the floor. The opponent can easily rotate his hips and pass to quarter guard or go knee on belly WHILE IN THE SUBMISSION. That's not good. Very easy to escape.

Also, what you should do here is called an "Electric Chair" which is both a sweep and a submission and will be far more reliable than this.

Hip Flexor from Scarf hold:

This one is actually viable, but it also takes away part of your control from his head and arm, making it easier for him to escape. Also, as Ironman said, this is not common practice to attempt to escape scarf like that.

Kneebar:

It's a basic kneebar... don't know what else you want on that. Also, when you do it, sit up closer to his head, it causes far more pressure and extension on his leg.

"Knee Crusher":

This I actually like quite a lot, but there are a few mistakes with it. I LOVE calf crushers (they're extremely painful) but I generally do them from half or side, cool to see one from guard. The part you need to remember here is that the pressure is on the knee and the back of the calf. Instead of putting your foot under him like you do, wrap it over his hips. This will do two things, stop him from rolling and cause far more pressure on that leg. You can also use that extra leg and put a sort of body triangle on, adding even MORE pressure. Extremely painfaul and effective, if you're quick enough to land it.

(after typing that I realize that IronMan just said the same damn thing -.-)

Toehold:

The only problem I have with this is that the instructor DOES NOT BOX HIS HIPS in any way. That's extremely annoying to see. You HAVE to control his hips to make sure he can't just roll out of it. As it stands, the victim could easily do that. Had he put his foot across the belly (like he does in the classic kneebar) it would be much more effective.


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