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Old 01-03-2011, 10:55 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by BearInTheClinch View Post
well there are a variety of problems
but for one big key in Wing Chun is you basicaly have to target areas that are 90% illegal in sport comat
so that's a huge detraction
I mean as far as asking how it does in MMA you may as well ask how Kendo is doing in the cage...
I'm really not trying to take a confrontational tone here, but that's the copout that every crappy school makes. The "we're too deadly to spar/compete" is only spouted by those who are too afraid to do so. I know plenty of JKD schools who compete, even if their main interest is self-defense, and I Krav Maga schools that at least spar hard.

A style that hinges around techniques that can't be honed in hard sparring or competition (which is still a training method, not an end into itself) is not a legitimate style. I, however, do not short change WC and claim that it is such a style.

To be honest, the WC guy who was sparring with the kickboxer in the vid above -- he could probably beat a lot of amateur MMA fighters I've seen (if he had takedown defense). He's got speed and skills and he got them using an IRREPLACABLE training method -- sparring.

Long story short, if you don't spar, you can't fight. If you do spar, you can compete.
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Old 01-03-2011, 03:42 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Long story short, if you don't spar, you can't fight.
Actually you can. Every normal human being can fight naturally. Usually martial artist (mostly those pseudo traditional ones) suggest that without martial arts training the fighting ability would be at 0% and that there would be a clear line between a martial artist and a non-martial artist. Try to take away the newborn baby of a mother and she will prove them wrong. Sure, specific fighting training can (drastically) improve the fighting ability though and that's were I am with you again. Sparring is an absolute important factor to get as much access as possible from your maximal natural fighting potential. So for (successful) competition you imperativly need sparring.
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Old 01-03-2011, 05:14 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Actually you can. Every normal human being can fight naturally. Usually martial artist (mostly those pseudo traditional ones) suggest that without martial arts training the fighting ability would be at 0% and that there would be a clear line between a martial artist and a non-martial artist. Try to take away the newborn baby of a mother and she will prove them wrong. Sure, specific fighting training can (drastically) improve the fighting ability though and that's were I am with you again. Sparring is an absolute important factor to get as much access as possible from your maximal natural fighting potential. So for (successful) competition you imperativly need sparring.
Okay, I see what you mean. I guess I could rephrase and say "if you don't spar, you can't fight well." (It should also be noted that being able to spar is by no means a gaurantee that one can fight well, but it's definitely a prerequisite.)

And yes, it's true that some people are just tough and can scrap, but VERY rarely can they match up to somebody who is well trained. There are exceptions to every rule, of course, but the rule remains.

Overall, I agree with your sentiment.
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Old 01-04-2011, 04:21 AM   #14 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kin View Post
I'm really not trying to take a confrontational tone here, but that's the copout that every crappy school makes. The "we're too deadly to spar/compete" is only spouted by those who are too afraid to do so. I know plenty of JKD schools who compete, even if their main interest is self-defense, and I Krav Maga schools that at least spar hard.

A style that hinges around techniques that can't be honed in hard sparring or competition (which is still a training method, not an end into itself) is not a legitimate style. I, however, do not short change WC and claim that it is such a style.

To be honest, the WC guy who was sparring with the kickboxer in the vid above -- he could probably beat a lot of amateur MMA fighters I've seen (if he had takedown defense). He's got speed and skills and he got them using an IRREPLACABLE training method -- sparring.

Long story short, if you don't spar, you can't fight. If you do spar, you can compete.
I agree with all of that actually
I'm pretty sure you mistook my statment to mean that WingChun was great or something, all I really mean is that the way it's set up even the best in the world at it would be at a disadvantage if they tried to use it in a competitive sport type competition
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Old 01-04-2011, 04:24 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Actually you can. Every normal human being can fight naturally. Usually martial artist (mostly those pseudo traditional ones) suggest that without martial arts training the fighting ability would be at 0% and that there would be a clear line between a martial artist and a non-martial artist. Try to take away the newborn baby of a mother and she will prove them wrong. Sure, specific fighting training can (drastically) improve the fighting ability though and that's were I am with you again. Sparring is an absolute important factor to get as much access as possible from your maximal natural fighting potential. So for (successful) competition you imperativly need sparring.
I'm pretty sure he ment fight well, not just fight in general
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Old 01-04-2011, 10:24 AM   #16 (permalink)
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I agree with all of that actually
I'm pretty sure you mistook my statment to mean that WingChun was great or something, all I really mean is that the way it's set up even the best in the world at it would be at a disadvantage if they tried to use it in a competitive sport type competition
Nah, I just don't believe that the "95 percent of what we use doesn't work for competition" doesn't excuse them even one bit. (Well, maybe one bit, but not much more.) What you train with aliveness is what you can reliably use against a worthy opponent, and what you train with aliveness can be used in competition 99 percent of the time. Everything that isn't honed through alive drill or competition is just a hypothetical move that isn't truly in the martial artist's repetoire, and probably wouldn't make that much of a difference even if it were allowed.

My stance on this is just like mine in the "what striking style is best" thread. That is to say being able to deliver techniques is far more valuable than any technique in particular. Unless the combatants are of equal skill, the "too deadly for competition" stuff won't even be a factor. I think the point you're making is that a WC guy could have spent equal training time as sport fighter, but a large part of it was in non-sportative techniques, hence he's at a disadvantage. That's probably true, but I would argue that even in a no-rules environment, those techniques wouldn't help much. Why? Because the WC guy has spent too much time doing dead, resistance-less repetitions (since that stuff is too dangerous to practice live) instead of alive training that will allow him to build the set-ups, timing, and range to actually land things.

One guy spent time stockpiling ammunition while the other spent time at the range. Who's gonna win the gun fight?

I think we do have similar opinions, mine is just more drastic than yours. And I am always quick to pounce on the "too deadly to spar/compete" excuse because I feel like it's hurts martial arts as a whole. If it didn't exist, or at least wasn't encouraged or perpetuated as much, the current state of TMA would be a lot more respectable.

(And despite the fact that it may seem like I hate on TMA all the time, I actually like a lot of it. I just feel like it's fallen from grace and been somehow overcome by an era of wussy-ness. I know TMA guys from the 70's and 80's who could freaking fight, but their training resembled sport fighting a lot more than the modern counterparts in their arts.)
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Old 01-07-2011, 12:41 AM   #17 (permalink)
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Nah, I just don't believe that the "95 percent of what we use doesn't work for competition" doesn't excuse them even one bit. (Well, maybe one bit, but not much more.) What you train with aliveness is what you can reliably use against a worthy opponent, and what you train with aliveness can be used in competition 99 percent of the time. Everything that isn't honed through alive drill or competition is just a hypothetical move that isn't truly in the martial artist's repetoire, and probably wouldn't make that much of a difference even if it were allowed.

My stance on this is just like mine in the "what striking style is best" thread. That is to say being able to deliver techniques is far more valuable than any technique in particular. Unless the combatants are of equal skill, the "too deadly for competition" stuff won't even be a factor. I think the point you're making is that a WC guy could have spent equal training time as sport fighter, but a large part of it was in non-sportative techniques, hence he's at a disadvantage. That's probably true, but I would argue that even in a no-rules environment, those techniques wouldn't help much. Why? Because the WC guy has spent too much time doing dead, resistance-less repetitions (since that stuff is too dangerous to practice live) instead of alive training that will allow him to build the set-ups, timing, and range to actually land things.

One guy spent time stockpiling ammunition while the other spent time at the range. Who's gonna win the gun fight?

I think we do have similar opinions, mine is just more drastic than yours. And I am always quick to pounce on the "too deadly to spar/compete" excuse because I feel like it's hurts martial arts as a whole. If it didn't exist, or at least wasn't encouraged or perpetuated as much, the current state of TMA would be a lot more respectable.

(And despite the fact that it may seem like I hate on TMA all the time, I actually like a lot of it. I just feel like it's fallen from grace and been somehow overcome by an era of wussy-ness. I know TMA guys from the 70's and 80's who could freaking fight, but their training resembled sport fighting a lot more than the modern counterparts in their arts.)
well I think the key here is that I'm not saying Wing Chung is too deadly to be used in the UFC, I'm saying a good bit of what they practice isn't legal in the UFC so it dosn't really matter if they are able to do it well or not, if you think a MThaiBoxer is exagerating his abilities in the Clinch you test him out in a Thaistyle match not a GrecoRoman Wrestling contest...

but overall yah when people say thier skills are 'too deadly' for the UFC generally I think they are full of shit
with the exception of people training in weapon styles
they are probubly correct
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Old 01-07-2011, 02:31 AM   #18 (permalink)
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well I think the key here is that I'm not saying Wing Chung is too deadly to be used in the UFC, I'm saying a good bit of what they practice isn't legal in the UFC so it dosn't really matter if they are able to do it well or not, if you think a MThaiBoxer is exagerating his abilities in the Clinch you test him out in a Thaistyle match not a GrecoRoman Wrestling contest...

but overall yah when people say thier skills are 'too deadly' for the UFC generally I think they are full of shit
with the exception of people training in weapon styles
they are probubly correct
PFFT- As if! Those Kali guys are TOTALLY ducking the octagon!

Just curious though, what techniques are you referring to that WC has that aren't allowed in MMA, but don't fall into the 'too deadly' category.
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Old 01-07-2011, 04:35 PM   #19 (permalink)
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To my knowledge only a couple of Wing Chun practitioners have ever competed in MMA. Or at least competed on the level where there is any level of notoriety attached to their performance/character. Most principly Sean Obasi.

With regard to Sean Obasi, his Wing Chun is crisp. There are Youtube videos of him sparring pure Wing Chun and it looks damn good technically. However! if you watch his MMA fights what he is doing is barely considered anything close to Wing Chun. His guard is very Wing Chun-ey, however he appears to forget all technique once he lands a punch. Also: homeboy can't throw a roundhouse kick. That's embarassing on a basic Martial Arts level.

With Wing Chun in general, it has its areas of positive effect. Its a Martial Art that, with regard to hands, entails a centered guard and very fast hand movement and straight punches called chain punches. Regarding the legs, in most cases kicks are deisgned to control range and stifle the opponent's attack, i.e. push kicks, front snaps, etc. With stances, its about rooting and moving explovely.

These are all solid principles for any MA practitioner or MMA fighter. However, their application doesn't translate very well outside of Wing Chun competition. The conditioning of the style for said comp, leaves the user very open to a lot of basic techniques from other more mainstream styles, i.e. knees, roundhouse kicks, boxing style rotational punching (as stated earlier I think).

Moral: Wing Chun has its benefits for any fighter. However it is probably not the best option for achieving excellance in most of these areas. That being said, I think a Wing Chun practitioner has as much a chance of being great in MMA as any other practitioner of a TMA. Its all about crosstraining IMO.
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Old 01-07-2011, 06:40 PM   #20 (permalink)
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PFFT- As if! Those Kali guys are TOTALLY ducking the octagon!
Well, that's probably because they are not allowed to use their sticks or knives which they are primarily training

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To my knowledge only a couple of Wing Chun practitioners have ever competed in MMA. Or at least competed on the level where there is any level of notoriety attached to their performance/character. Most principly Sean Obasi.
That guy¿



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With regard to Sean Obasi, his Wing Chun is crisp. There are Youtube videos of him sparring pure Wing Chun and it looks damn good technically.
Like this Chi Sao exercise where he constantly gets off-balanced by a girl that is maybe 50lbs less than him¿



Or this "sparring"¿



Not very impressive to me though. There are others who at least try to train under pressure:




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