Have Wing Chunners ever won against other styles? - Page 3 - MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos
Grappling Technique Grappling discussion area.

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
post #21 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 06:23 PM
Kin
MMA fighter
 
Kin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 643
                     
I was absolutely kidding about the Kali. =P

The Dog Brothers are ahead of the game; they're already spreading the next big combat sport -- KALI-TUDO aka stickfighting + grappling!

Highly opinionated but out of touch with the current MMA scene.

Support my FB athlete page!



Watch my 7th pro fight here



Watch my "Bare Knuckle" Boxing match here

Kin is offline  
Sponsored Links
Advertisement
 
post #22 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 06:35 PM
Squirrel Fighting Champ
 
Squirrelfighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,719
Blog Entries: 4
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
Well, that's probably because they are not allowed to use their sticks or knives which they are primarily training

That guy¿

Like this Chi Sao exercise where he constantly gets off-balanced by a girl that is maybe 50lbs less than him¿

Or this "sparring"¿

Not very impressive to me though. There are others who at least try to train under pressure:
Okay 1. I never said he was a good MMA fighter. 2. I said his stuff is technically crisp. Which it is. He's just bad at applying it. 3. If you want to talk sh*t about Obasi, I won't complain, but do it in smacktalk instead of making insinuations here.



Sig courtesy of that photo-matic magician limba

Quote:
I went out the way that I fight. I went out on my shield. That’s it. Done. --Chuck Liddell
Quote:
My goal is to end my opponent --Carlos Condit
Squirrelfighter is offline  
post #23 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 09:23 PM
Heavyweight
 
Voiceless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Neo-Babylon
Posts: 3,914
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin View Post
I was absolutely kidding about the Kali. =P
No problem, as with other arts there is Kali and there is Kali. I've seen some Kali stuff which would give the background for your statement to be meant as real

Not Kali, but similar enough to show what I mean:



Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin View Post
The Dog Brothers are ahead of the game; they're already spreading the next big combat sport -- KALI-TUDO aka stickfighting + grappling!
Yes, DBMA are quite good along with Leo Gaje's Pekiti Tirsia Kali lineage of which they are an offspring. But I don't think, it's becoming a big competitive sport. Their gatherings are not competitive in the sense of sports competition. They are not about winning, but to get a certain self-awareness. And the risk of injury is quite too high for a competitive sport to ever get allowed by a sports comission. So no big money - no big spreading - and it stays with the enthusiasts.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
Okay 1. I never said he was a good MMA fighter. 2. I said his stuff is technically crisp. Which it is. He's just bad at applying it. 3. If you want to talk sh*t about Obasi, I won't complain, but do it in smacktalk instead of making insinuations here.
There was absolutely no offense meant towards you. I'm sorry if you had that impression. I didn't know that guy. I just looked him up after you mentioned him and gave my opinion on what I've seen then. He just didn't impress me, also Wing Chun-wise by the Wing Chun standards I know. But I have a lot of respect for him that he at least steps in the ring an tries to apply his stuff.
Voiceless is offline  
post #24 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-08-2011, 11:08 PM
Kin
MMA fighter
 
Kin's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Boston, Massachusetts
Posts: 643
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
No problem, as with other arts there is Kali and there is Kali. I've seen some Kali stuff which would give the background for your statement to be meant as real

Not Kali, but similar enough to show what I mean:





Yes, DBMA are quite good along with Leo Gaje's Pekiti Tirsia Kali lineage of which they are an offspring. But I don't think, it's becoming a big competitive sport. Their gatherings are not competitive in the sense of sports competition. They are not about winning, but to get a certain self-awareness. And the risk of injury is quite too high for a competitive sport to ever get allowed by a sports comission. So no big money - no big spreading - and it stays with the enthusiasts.
Man deadpan totally doesn't work over the internet.

I agree that it probably wouldn't become a sport for the reasons you listed. Plus, I don't think that there would be an audience for it. Stick fighting isn't nearly appealing to the untrained eye as hand to hand, and it's taken years for the grappling component to be respected by laymen spectators.

That aside, I seriously do think that the Dog Brothers rawk.

Highly opinionated but out of touch with the current MMA scene.

Support my FB athlete page!



Watch my 7th pro fight here



Watch my "Bare Knuckle" Boxing match here

Kin is offline  
post #25 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-09-2011, 12:39 AM
Flyweight
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 205
                   
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kin View Post
PFFT- As if! Those Kali guys are TOTALLY ducking the octagon!

Just curious though, what techniques are you referring to that WC has that aren't allowed in MMA, but don't fall into the 'too deadly' category.
just any generally "foul" tactics that they (or any self defence art) would utilize
targeting the groin
punches to the throat
eyepokes etc (more from the clinch or on the ground then with outside standup)

naturally anyone can't bring that to the cage but with Wing Chun because of the way it's set up, that's MOST of what they do so to say hey WC guy hop in the cage here and fight this MThai boxer is like asking the Thaiboxer to wrestle a GrecoRoman guy in pure Wrestling
BearInTheClinch is offline  
post #26 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-09-2011, 12:42 AM
Squirrel Fighting Champ
 
Squirrelfighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,719
Blog Entries: 4
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
There was absolutely no offense meant towards you. I'm sorry if you had that impression. I didn't know that guy. I just looked him up after you mentioned him and gave my opinion on what I've seen then. He just didn't impress me, also Wing Chun-wise by the Wing Chun standards I know. But I have a lot of respect for him that he at least steps in the ring an tries to apply his stuff.
Yeah. I may have overreacted. Happens sometimes!

Thing with Obasi, to me, is his forms are pretty tight. Whereas he has difficulty translating it into partner work and free sparring.



And his MMA woah nelly!



Sweet Wing Chun brah! One vertical fist, a sprawl/scramble followed by wild loony toon punches!



Sig courtesy of that photo-matic magician limba

Quote:
I went out the way that I fight. I went out on my shield. That’s it. Done. --Chuck Liddell
Quote:
My goal is to end my opponent --Carlos Condit
Squirrelfighter is offline  
post #27 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-09-2011, 06:52 AM
Heavyweight
 
Voiceless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Neo-Babylon
Posts: 3,914
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by BearInTheClinch View Post
just any generally "foul" tactics that they (or any self defence art) would utilize
targeting the groin
punches to the throat
eyepokes etc (more from the clinch or on the ground then with outside standup)

naturally anyone can't bring that to the cage but with Wing Chun because of the way it's set up, that's MOST of what they do so to say hey WC guy hop in the cage here and fight this MThai boxer is like asking the Thaiboxer to wrestle a GrecoRoman guy in pure Wrestling
If you look at (the rare) footage where Wing Chunners are actually engaged in some sort of fighting (may it be competitive, hard sparring or real) they mostly hardly hit the head (as most people have problems hitting a moving target), how then do you expect them to hit an even smaller target like an eye which is part of that moving target (head) they are not properly able to hit¿

Wing Chun works in the way of an suprising first strike counter attack. Like you are standing at a bar or an ATM, someone comes up and starts to bully you and out of nothing you explode and run over him. But the Wing Chun tools are less effective when it comes to an 1-on-1 fight. It's just not designed for that. Don't forget, Wing Chun was (at least as it's said) invented by a woman and if you look at it that makes sense. Women are usually confronted with a completely different threat scenario than men. Men are more likely to get involved into a slugfestish brawl, women are not. Women will rather face the threat of a sexual assault and there a different field of fighting principles comes into play. Here stuff like centerlined chain punches and other Wing Chun principles do make sense.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post
Yeah. I may have overreacted. Happens sometimes!
No problem. With the subtle irony in my post I may have sounded a bit harsh, but as I said it was absolutely not targeted at you. I had clearly understood that you just wanted to point out that there is some Wing Chun guy who tries to test his stuff in competition and had no impression you wanted to sell him as the big deal who's going to rampage through the MMA scene.
I'm just a bit sensitive towards Wing Chun as in my area there is one Wing Chun organisation that was quite big mouthish and trashtalking about other styles, but never backed up their claims in competition, using all these "to deadly" excuses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Squirrelfighter View Post


Sweet Wing Chun brah! One vertical fist, a sprawl/scramble followed by wild loony toon punches!
Everyone goes caveman-boxing when the pressure is high enough

That's what it looks like when high ranked Wing Chunners are engaged into a fight, not much Wing Chun left:

Emin Boztepe (at that time model-fighter of the European Wing Tsun Organisation) vs. William Cheung (Grandmaster of the Cheung lineage)


or two headmasters in a quarrel after one split up from the organisation:

http://www.56.com/u40/v_MjA4MTY0Mjk.html (can't embed this one)
Voiceless is offline  
post #28 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-11-2011, 04:27 AM
Flyweight
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 205
                   
Firstly I didn't say they'd be ABLE to get it done, I said since that is a high portion of thier training, and that is not legal in MMA we will likely never see a high number of thier practitioners in MMA competition.
Secondly I did point out that it would be more likely to be something that got done (when it did get done) from the Clinch or on the Ground, where btw it is very difficult to stop. (you may notice in many mma fights you will hear the ref admonishing one fighter to "watch the eyes" when they are grappling about. if it was really easy to stop someone from poking you in the eye once the grapple was joined the ref wouldn't have to say anything cus the other fighter would be handling it himself)

I think people are assuming I'm saying things I am not saying here so I'll be extra clear on this point.
I am NOT saying that Wing Chun fighters are so deadly they can't compete because they would kill thier opponents, I AM saying that the way they train isn't set up for use in MMA so it dosn't make any sence for them to try to prove themselves there. Which is why I made my MThai/GrecoRoman analogy.
BearInTheClinch is offline  
post #29 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-11-2011, 08:32 PM
Heavyweight
 
Voiceless's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Location: Neo-Babylon
Posts: 3,914
                     
Quote:
Originally Posted by BearInTheClinch View Post
Secondly I did point out that it would be more likely to be something that got done (when it did get done) from the Clinch or on the Ground,
Yes, you said so, my fault to only focus on the eye poke. But still, also the other things you mentioned they train do not translate into real fighting that easily. For expample an experienced fighter keeps his chin down, which not only protects the chin, but also the throat.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BearInTheClinch View Post
where btw it is very difficult to stop. (you may notice in many mma fights you will hear the ref admonishing one fighter to "watch the eyes" when they are grappling about. if it was really easy to stop someone from poking you in the eye once the grapple was joined the ref wouldn't have to say anything cus the other fighter would be handling it himself)
No, the referee admonishes the fighter, because eye poking is against the rules. That in first place doesn't say anything about how easy or not it would be to defend against that sort of technique. But sure, it would be an additional tool to a fighter's arsenal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BearInTheClinch View Post
I think people are assuming I'm saying things I am not saying here so I'll be extra clear on this point.
I am NOT saying that Wing Chun fighters are so deadly they can't compete because they would kill thier opponents,
I didn't say you said so, I said that I have experience with a Wing Chun organisation whose members (and lots of practioners from other organisations) made such claims.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BearInTheClinch View Post
I AM saying that the way they train isn't set up for use in MMA so it dosn't make any sence for them to try to prove themselves there. Which is why I made my MThai/GrecoRoman analogy.
Obviously they don't train for MMA competions, neither do pure Muay Thai fighter, wrestler or Jiu Jitsuka, but their arts mostly translate to one area of MMA fighting whereas there is so far no proof that there is much from Wing Chun that translates.

The problem is not so much that Wing Chunners do not compete in MMA, it's the claims like I mentioned above lots of Wing Chunners do, being to deadly for sports competition and being superior to MMA fighters in a real streetfight situation without any proof to back it up. For an MMA fighter there is enough empirical evidence for what happens when a boxing hook connects with the opponent's chin, he cuts off blood backflow from the head with a choke or how he can control his opponent with a lock. On the other hand Wing Chunners have not much proof that the "deadly" moves are really that deadly and can mostly only rely on hearsay about some ancient masters.

Last edited by Voiceless; 01-12-2011 at 05:10 PM. Reason: typo
Voiceless is offline  
post #30 of 33 (permalink) Old 01-12-2011, 11:47 AM
Squirrel Fighting Champ
 
Squirrelfighter's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,719
Blog Entries: 4
                     
Something that has been bothering me the more I read: Wing Chun IS! a f-ing competition Art in modern practice. Almost everyone knows the story of Wing Chun, but now its as much a sport Art as MT, or Judo.


Big guy looks like derp derp!



No head gear/gloves mean open palm, questionable headshot rules.

The rules are different. Winning doesn't necessarily come from a KO, or dominant striking. Proper technique gets points. A hook punch is worth nothing. A leaping roundhouse kick gets you nothing. A "dragon stomp" (front push kick to the knee/thigh) gets you points, and chain punches get you points. Fluid interceptive blocking gets you points. THAT is why it isn't traslateable in its current state to MMA, because the rules don't allow it to be. It has nothing to do with "illegal techniques."

Edit: Just noticed that the same random weird guy is in both matches...does that mean he's good? Hope not!



Sig courtesy of that photo-matic magician limba

Quote:
I went out the way that I fight. I went out on my shield. That’s it. Done. --Chuck Liddell
Quote:
My goal is to end my opponent --Carlos Condit
Squirrelfighter is offline  
Reply

Quick Reply
Message:
Options

Register Now



In order to be able to post messages on the MMA Forum - UFC Forums - UFC Results - MMA Videos forums, you must first register.
Please enter your desired user name, your email address and other required details in the form below.

User Name:
Password
Please enter a password for your user account. Note that passwords are case-sensitive.

Password:


Confirm Password:
Email Address
Please enter a valid email address for yourself.

Email Address:
OR

Log-in









Human Verification

In order to verify that you are a human and not a spam bot, please enter the answer into the following box below based on the instructions contained in the graphic.




Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Show Printable Version Show Printable Version
Email this Page Email this Page
Display Modes
Linear Mode Linear Mode



Posting Rules  
You may post new threads
You may post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are On

 
For the best viewing experience please update your browser to Google Chrome