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-   -   Have Wing Chunners ever won against other styles? (http://www.mmaforum.com/grappling-technique/85705-have-wing-chunners-ever-won-against-other-styles.html)

Shawnwilson 12-25-2010 04:29 AM

Have Wing Chunners ever won against other styles?
 
I see Wing Chuns anti grappling techniques and I see fast punches that can get through and counter other punches. I also see conditioning in Wing Chun so how come in most videos in yout tube Wing Chunners are always losing. Has there been anyone with Wing Chun that won against someone with other styles such as karate and jujuitsu at an equel level.

KillerShark1985 12-25-2010 04:46 AM

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts are only good for the Movies my friend, what really works in the cage is a combined knowledge of Muay Thai, Wrestling and BJJ or maybe you never watched MMA.

Voiceless 12-25-2010 07:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerShark1985 (Post 1327422)
Traditional Chinese Martial Arts are only good for the Movies my friend, what really works in the cage is a combined knowledge of Muay Thai, Wrestling and BJJ or maybe you never watched MMA.

It's not that simple. MMA is a sport of evolution. First, BJJ/grappling was the big deal and dominated the other styles, then the MT/Kickboxers learnt how to defend take downs and became players in the game as well and recently wrestling became a more and more important factor. Nowadays you need knowledge in all of these three arts to succeed, but it's not merely a summed up knowledge. Every of these arts has to be adjusted for MMA, so it's not unlikely that in the future at least specific aspects of other arts might find their way to be incorporated (probably not so much a whole art, as the different stages of the fight - stand up, clinch/take down, ground fight are already covered up). Lately we have seen the boxing jab (which is not so much used in pure Muay Thai) being utilised effectively, from time to time we even witness flashy moves used with success (spinning back kicks or even a wall run kick).

As for Wing Chun, as a single art it has not many chances, as has no single art, but I could imagine that i.e. intelligently incorporated chain punches could become an additional weapon against people who storm forward with big overhand punches.

xeberus 12-25-2010 09:16 AM

Well... "have wing chunners ever won against other styles?" yes. I would guess at some point in time the stars aligned and a wingchunner was successful in a fight. that and also maybe some fat kid took up boxing and got mauled by a very athletic counterpart of wingchun.

IronMan 12-25-2010 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xeberus (Post 1327461)
Well... "have wing chunners ever won against other styles?" yes. I would guess at some point in time the stars aligned and a wingchunner was successful in a fight. that and also maybe some fat kid took up boxing and got mauled by a very athletic counterpart of wingchun.

Why are you calling out Butterbean like that? It's not his fault he's big boned.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shawnwilson (Post 1327414)
I see Wing Chuns anti grappling techniques and I see fast punches that can get through and counter other punches. I also see conditioning in Wing Chun so how come in most videos in yout tube Wing Chunners are always losing. Has there been anyone with Wing Chun that won against someone with other styles such as karate and jujuitsu at an equel level.

Traditional forms, regardless of where they come from, regardless of how ancient or how tricky, can never keep up in terms of combat practicality than styles that are used for competition, and that's a lot of the issue with Wing Chun. There are guys who do Wing Chun who are great competitors and who are serious fighters, both in Asia and the United States, but as a style, there's too much other stuff going on that's progressing way faster than Wing Chun to make it competitive in terms of either a mixed martial arts style practice or in terms of street fight situations against skilled opponents.

It's not as though it's a useless style. There are definitely some good things to learn in Wing Chun, but it hasn't evolved to keep up with sports like western boxing and kickboxing or muay thai or judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Those styles see a constant evolution and are constantly seeing new techniques innovated and most Wing Chun guys don't have answers for flying knees, or variations on the thai clinch, or the judo clinch, or for rolling submissions.

I have a few friends who train Wing Chun and they like to work with me and spar in a more MMA style setting, but the reality is that the Wing Chun that they practice simply isn't equipped to deal with even basic wrestling aware of protecting the face. They don't really have an answer for a lot of the techniques that emerge out of western wrestling and the clinch game of judo, and that's a really serious problem, since grappling has taken a prominent role in modern competition.

It's not impossible for Wing Chun to be effective, but the circumstances under which it has to be implemented to be effective are very hard to find in modern competition, which is why there aren't really any successful Wing Chun fighters around MMA, and probably why you're having trouble locating videos of successful Wing Chun fights.

North 12-25-2010 07:07 PM

Sean Obasi, I think is the dude's name. He's a pretty legit Wing Chun student, and has won a few MMA fights if I'm not mistaken. Mind you, what he did in those MMA fights to win looked very, very little like Wing Chun. He also made an absolute fool of himself at some tryouts for a major organization, but I can't recall for the life of me the name of the organization. The biggest Russian one, or something? I don't know. His meltdown at the tryouts are on youtube, for the world to see.

I also seen some other video of a Wing Chun fighter sparring with a kickboxer and dominating pretty well. As for them being at an equal level, I don't know. I would guess not, but that would be a guess.

I wouldn't rely on any one martial art for MMA though, or in general. Current state of traditional martial arts means that to be a well rounded martial artist, one needs to cross train.

-North

Kin 01-01-2011 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KillerShark1985 (Post 1327422)
Traditional Chinese Martial Arts are only good for the Movies my friend, what really works in the cage is a combined knowledge of Muay Thai, Wrestling and BJJ or maybe you never watched MMA.

I resent that! Sanda is pretty legit!

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronMan (Post 1327508)

Traditional forms, regardless of where they come from, regardless of how ancient or how tricky, can never keep up in terms of combat practicality than styles that are used for competition, and that's a lot of the issue with Wing Chun.

This.

Quote:

Originally Posted by North (Post 1327576)
Sean Obasi, I think is the dude's name. He's a pretty legit Wing Chun student, and has won a few MMA fights if I'm not mistaken. Mind you, what he did in those MMA fights to win looked very, very little like Wing Chun. He also made an absolute fool of himself at some tryouts for a major organization, but I can't recall for the life of me the name of the organization. The biggest Russian one, or something? I don't know. His meltdown at the tryouts are on youtube, for the world to see.

I also seen some other video of a Wing Chun fighter sparring with a kickboxer and dominating pretty well. As for them being at an equal level, I don't know. I would guess not, but that would be a guess.

I wouldn't rely on any one martial art for MMA though, or in general. Current state of traditional martial arts means that to be a well rounded martial artist, one needs to cross train.

-North

Sean "I'll die a m********ing Wing Chun man!" Obasi flipped OUT during the M1 global tryouts 'cause he couldn't throw a good roundkick and the judges got on him about that.

As for the video of the WC guy vs the kickboxer

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXg0FFREzcg

They certainly weren't of equal skill. The WC guy actually looked pretty good. The kickboxer, on the other hand, was pretty bad. Furthermore, the kickboxer was going at sparring speed while the WC guy looked like he was going full-bore -- with small gloves, no shinpads, and shoes no less.

I've had a lot of similar experiences sparring kung fu guys. I'll be going at sparring speed, they'll be going full-blast and they'll land a lot of shots that they shouldn't. Then I realize that they're going full-out, so I match the intensity and they whither and drop. While there are different ways of throwing a punch and a kick, the most efficient methods all look pretty similar (ie: like boxing or kickboxing). Other methods can overwhelm an untrained fighter or be hard for a properly trained striker to defend (because they're so unorthodox), but these blows are weak and easy to blow right through with committed conventional striking techniques.

Voiceless 01-01-2011 08:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kin (Post 1331218)
They certainly weren't of equal skill. The WC guy actually looked pretty good. The kickboxer, on the other hand, was pretty bad.

As far as I remember, the Wing Chun guy is a teacher on "Technician" or even "Practician" grade according to EWTO (European Wing Tsun Organisation) which is the equivalent to a Dan grade in Japanese martial arts. I don't have a clue about the kickboxer though besides what there is to see in the clip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kin (Post 1331218)
Furthermore, the kickboxer was going at sparring speed while the WC guy looked like he was going full-bore -- with small gloves, no shinpads, and shoes no less.

I've had a lot of similar experiences sparring kung fu guys. I'll be going at sparring speed, they'll be going full-blast and they'll land a lot of shots that they shouldn't. Then I realize that they're going full-out, so I match the intensity and they whither and drop.

Yes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kin (Post 1331218)
While there are different ways of throwing a punch and a kick, the most efficient methods all look pretty similar (ie: like boxing or kickboxing). Other methods can overwhelm an untrained fighter or be hard for a properly trained striker to defend (because they're so unorthodox), but these blows are weak and easy to blow right through with committed conventional striking techniques.

Yes, as I said, they can be a nice addition to your arsenal, but they won't hold for long as your standard weapon.

Kin 01-02-2011 04:35 PM

Hmm I thought I had also said that I thought Wing Chun could be a decent supplementary art. I think I was, coincidentally, posting about WC in different thread on another forum and I forgot where I posted what. I do agree with you that there are tools from it that could be useful. At my MMA gym, they actually offer WC classes 3 times a week. The guy who teaches it was a successful San Shou fighter who has around 15 fights to his name. I've seen him use pieces of WC when sparring. I don't know if he'd be able to if he wasn't also a good kickboxer, but it doesn't change the fact that he can utilize it.

BearInTheClinch 01-03-2011 03:14 AM

well there are a variety of problems
but for one big key in Wing Chun is you basicaly have to target areas that are 90% illegal in sport comat
so that's a huge detraction
I mean as far as asking how it does in MMA you may as well ask how Kendo is doing in the cage...


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