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Have Wing Chunners ever won against other styles?

28K views 32 replies 9 participants last post by  Voiceless 
#1 ·
I see Wing Chuns anti grappling techniques and I see fast punches that can get through and counter other punches. I also see conditioning in Wing Chun so how come in most videos in yout tube Wing Chunners are always losing. Has there been anyone with Wing Chun that won against someone with other styles such as karate and jujuitsu at an equel level.
 
#3 ·
It's not that simple. MMA is a sport of evolution. First, BJJ/grappling was the big deal and dominated the other styles, then the MT/Kickboxers learnt how to defend take downs and became players in the game as well and recently wrestling became a more and more important factor. Nowadays you need knowledge in all of these three arts to succeed, but it's not merely a summed up knowledge. Every of these arts has to be adjusted for MMA, so it's not unlikely that in the future at least specific aspects of other arts might find their way to be incorporated (probably not so much a whole art, as the different stages of the fight - stand up, clinch/take down, ground fight are already covered up). Lately we have seen the boxing jab (which is not so much used in pure Muay Thai) being utilised effectively, from time to time we even witness flashy moves used with success (spinning back kicks or even a wall run kick).

As for Wing Chun, as a single art it has not many chances, as has no single art, but I could imagine that i.e. intelligently incorporated chain punches could become an additional weapon against people who storm forward with big overhand punches.
 
#4 ·
Well... "have wing chunners ever won against other styles?" yes. I would guess at some point in time the stars aligned and a wingchunner was successful in a fight. that and also maybe some fat kid took up boxing and got mauled by a very athletic counterpart of wingchun.
 
#5 ·
Why are you calling out Butterbean like that? It's not his fault he's big boned.

I see Wing Chuns anti grappling techniques and I see fast punches that can get through and counter other punches. I also see conditioning in Wing Chun so how come in most videos in yout tube Wing Chunners are always losing. Has there been anyone with Wing Chun that won against someone with other styles such as karate and jujuitsu at an equel level.
Traditional forms, regardless of where they come from, regardless of how ancient or how tricky, can never keep up in terms of combat practicality than styles that are used for competition, and that's a lot of the issue with Wing Chun. There are guys who do Wing Chun who are great competitors and who are serious fighters, both in Asia and the United States, but as a style, there's too much other stuff going on that's progressing way faster than Wing Chun to make it competitive in terms of either a mixed martial arts style practice or in terms of street fight situations against skilled opponents.

It's not as though it's a useless style. There are definitely some good things to learn in Wing Chun, but it hasn't evolved to keep up with sports like western boxing and kickboxing or muay thai or judo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. Those styles see a constant evolution and are constantly seeing new techniques innovated and most Wing Chun guys don't have answers for flying knees, or variations on the thai clinch, or the judo clinch, or for rolling submissions.

I have a few friends who train Wing Chun and they like to work with me and spar in a more MMA style setting, but the reality is that the Wing Chun that they practice simply isn't equipped to deal with even basic wrestling aware of protecting the face. They don't really have an answer for a lot of the techniques that emerge out of western wrestling and the clinch game of judo, and that's a really serious problem, since grappling has taken a prominent role in modern competition.

It's not impossible for Wing Chun to be effective, but the circumstances under which it has to be implemented to be effective are very hard to find in modern competition, which is why there aren't really any successful Wing Chun fighters around MMA, and probably why you're having trouble locating videos of successful Wing Chun fights.
 
#6 ·
Sean Obasi, I think is the dude's name. He's a pretty legit Wing Chun student, and has won a few MMA fights if I'm not mistaken. Mind you, what he did in those MMA fights to win looked very, very little like Wing Chun. He also made an absolute fool of himself at some tryouts for a major organization, but I can't recall for the life of me the name of the organization. The biggest Russian one, or something? I don't know. His meltdown at the tryouts are on youtube, for the world to see.

I also seen some other video of a Wing Chun fighter sparring with a kickboxer and dominating pretty well. As for them being at an equal level, I don't know. I would guess not, but that would be a guess.

I wouldn't rely on any one martial art for MMA though, or in general. Current state of traditional martial arts means that to be a well rounded martial artist, one needs to cross train.

-North
 
#9 ·
Hmm I thought I had also said that I thought Wing Chun could be a decent supplementary art. I think I was, coincidentally, posting about WC in different thread on another forum and I forgot where I posted what. I do agree with you that there are tools from it that could be useful. At my MMA gym, they actually offer WC classes 3 times a week. The guy who teaches it was a successful San Shou fighter who has around 15 fights to his name. I've seen him use pieces of WC when sparring. I don't know if he'd be able to if he wasn't also a good kickboxer, but it doesn't change the fact that he can utilize it.
 
#11 ·
I'm really not trying to take a confrontational tone here, but that's the copout that every crappy school makes. The "we're too deadly to spar/compete" is only spouted by those who are too afraid to do so. I know plenty of JKD schools who compete, even if their main interest is self-defense, and I Krav Maga schools that at least spar hard.

A style that hinges around techniques that can't be honed in hard sparring or competition (which is still a training method, not an end into itself) is not a legitimate style. I, however, do not short change WC and claim that it is such a style.

To be honest, the WC guy who was sparring with the kickboxer in the vid above -- he could probably beat a lot of amateur MMA fighters I've seen (if he had takedown defense). He's got speed and skills and he got them using an IRREPLACABLE training method -- sparring.

Long story short, if you don't spar, you can't fight. If you do spar, you can compete.
 
#19 ·
To my knowledge only a couple of Wing Chun practitioners have ever competed in MMA. Or at least competed on the level where there is any level of notoriety attached to their performance/character. Most principly Sean Obasi.

With regard to Sean Obasi, his Wing Chun is crisp. There are Youtube videos of him sparring pure Wing Chun and it looks damn good technically. However! if you watch his MMA fights what he is doing is barely considered anything close to Wing Chun. His guard is very Wing Chun-ey, however he appears to forget all technique once he lands a punch. Also: homeboy can't throw a roundhouse kick. That's embarassing on a basic Martial Arts level.

With Wing Chun in general, it has its areas of positive effect. Its a Martial Art that, with regard to hands, entails a centered guard and very fast hand movement and straight punches called chain punches. Regarding the legs, in most cases kicks are deisgned to control range and stifle the opponent's attack, i.e. push kicks, front snaps, etc. With stances, its about rooting and moving explovely.

These are all solid principles for any MA practitioner or MMA fighter. However, their application doesn't translate very well outside of Wing Chun competition. The conditioning of the style for said comp, leaves the user very open to a lot of basic techniques from other more mainstream styles, i.e. knees, roundhouse kicks, boxing style rotational punching (as stated earlier I think).

Moral: Wing Chun has its benefits for any fighter. However it is probably not the best option for achieving excellance in most of these areas. That being said, I think a Wing Chun practitioner has as much a chance of being great in MMA as any other practitioner of a TMA. Its all about crosstraining IMO.
 
#23 ·
I was absolutely kidding about the Kali. =P
No problem, as with other arts there is Kali and there is Kali. I've seen some Kali stuff which would give the background for your statement to be meant as real ;)

Not Kali, but similar enough to show what I mean:



The Dog Brothers are ahead of the game; they're already spreading the next big combat sport -- KALI-TUDO aka stickfighting + grappling!
Yes, DBMA are quite good along with Leo Gaje's Pekiti Tirsia Kali lineage of which they are an offspring. But I don't think, it's becoming a big competitive sport. Their gatherings are not competitive in the sense of sports competition. They are not about winning, but to get a certain self-awareness. And the risk of injury is quite too high for a competitive sport to ever get allowed by a sports comission. So no big money - no big spreading - and it stays with the enthusiasts.

Okay 1. I never said he was a good MMA fighter. 2. I said his stuff is technically crisp. Which it is. He's just bad at applying it. 3. If you want to talk sh*t about Obasi, I won't complain, but do it in smacktalk instead of making insinuations here.
There was absolutely no offense meant towards you. I'm sorry if you had that impression. I didn't know that guy. I just looked him up after you mentioned him and gave my opinion on what I've seen then. He just didn't impress me, also Wing Chun-wise by the Wing Chun standards I know. But I have a lot of respect for him that he at least steps in the ring an tries to apply his stuff.
 
#28 ·
Firstly I didn't say they'd be ABLE to get it done, I said since that is a high portion of thier training, and that is not legal in MMA we will likely never see a high number of thier practitioners in MMA competition.
Secondly I did point out that it would be more likely to be something that got done (when it did get done) from the Clinch or on the Ground, where btw it is very difficult to stop. (you may notice in many mma fights you will hear the ref admonishing one fighter to "watch the eyes" when they are grappling about. if it was really easy to stop someone from poking you in the eye once the grapple was joined the ref wouldn't have to say anything cus the other fighter would be handling it himself)

I think people are assuming I'm saying things I am not saying here so I'll be extra clear on this point.
I am NOT saying that Wing Chun fighters are so deadly they can't compete because they would kill thier opponents, I AM saying that the way they train isn't set up for use in MMA so it dosn't make any sence for them to try to prove themselves there. Which is why I made my MThai/GrecoRoman analogy.
 
#29 · (Edited)
Secondly I did point out that it would be more likely to be something that got done (when it did get done) from the Clinch or on the Ground,
Yes, you said so, my fault to only focus on the eye poke. But still, also the other things you mentioned they train do not translate into real fighting that easily. For expample an experienced fighter keeps his chin down, which not only protects the chin, but also the throat.

where btw it is very difficult to stop. (you may notice in many mma fights you will hear the ref admonishing one fighter to "watch the eyes" when they are grappling about. if it was really easy to stop someone from poking you in the eye once the grapple was joined the ref wouldn't have to say anything cus the other fighter would be handling it himself)
No, the referee admonishes the fighter, because eye poking is against the rules. That in first place doesn't say anything about how easy or not it would be to defend against that sort of technique. But sure, it would be an additional tool to a fighter's arsenal.

I think people are assuming I'm saying things I am not saying here so I'll be extra clear on this point.
I am NOT saying that Wing Chun fighters are so deadly they can't compete because they would kill thier opponents,
I didn't say you said so, I said that I have experience with a Wing Chun organisation whose members (and lots of practioners from other organisations) made such claims.

I AM saying that the way they train isn't set up for use in MMA so it dosn't make any sence for them to try to prove themselves there. Which is why I made my MThai/GrecoRoman analogy.
Obviously they don't train for MMA competions, neither do pure Muay Thai fighter, wrestler or Jiu Jitsuka, but their arts mostly translate to one area of MMA fighting whereas there is so far no proof that there is much from Wing Chun that translates.

The problem is not so much that Wing Chunners do not compete in MMA, it's the claims like I mentioned above lots of Wing Chunners do, being to deadly for sports competition and being superior to MMA fighters in a real streetfight situation without any proof to back it up. For an MMA fighter there is enough empirical evidence for what happens when a boxing hook connects with the opponent's chin, he cuts off blood backflow from the head with a choke or how he can control his opponent with a lock. On the other hand Wing Chunners have not much proof that the "deadly" moves are really that deadly and can mostly only rely on hearsay about some ancient masters.
 
#30 ·
Something that has been bothering me the more I read: Wing Chun IS! a f-ing competition Art in modern practice. Almost everyone knows the story of Wing Chun, but now its as much a sport Art as MT, or Judo.


Big guy looks like derp derp!



No head gear/gloves mean open palm, questionable headshot rules.

The rules are different. Winning doesn't necessarily come from a KO, or dominant striking. Proper technique gets points. A hook punch is worth nothing. A leaping roundhouse kick gets you nothing. A "dragon stomp" (front push kick to the knee/thigh) gets you points, and chain punches get you points. Fluid interceptive blocking gets you points. THAT is why it isn't traslateable in its current state to MMA, because the rules don't allow it to be. It has nothing to do with "illegal techniques."

Edit: Just noticed that the same random weird guy is in both matches...does that mean he's good? Hope not!
 
#31 · (Edited)
Oh yes, these Chi Sao competitions are so weird. Chi Sao has nothing to do with actual fighting, it's an exercise to learn specific principles and to develop a better tactile reception. Such a competition cannot even show how good your Wing Chun is. Too many Wing Chunners focus too much on Chi Sao, because it feels good (it really does) and gives you the impression of being in control (as long as your partner, who thinks the same, stays with Chi Sao and doesn't bring other tools into the play).

As an exercise it might help to support your wrestling though.
 
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