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Old 01-12-2011, 02:49 AM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Kin View Post
I wish I were better at taking guys down when they're coming at me. I find that one pretty tough, but if you've got the timing for it, it's SOOO hard to stop. Also, I never thought to try to take a wrestler into his guard as opposed to side control. That makes perfect sense, since it'd be harder for him to scramble from there. That's something I'll be taking away from this...

Oh and you should totally make a clinch takedown thread. I'm not very good in the clinch so I wouldn't know what aspects of it to dissect and discuss.
I'll consider that
about being in a Wrestler's Guard, yah it's definatly an area that they generally arenot as good at (why would they be, with a Wrestling backround they always wind up with Top) I can't take 100% credit for the idea tho, I took Randy's preference for being in someone's Half-Guard a step further.
to offer a further tip, you can work on your ability to take someone down with body punches, basically if you can drop down and throw a boxing style body shot (jab or cross hooks are good but don't help for this purpose) then you have the timing required to Shoot Defensivly
practice this way, it will work for you in time
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:51 AM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TraMaI View Post
As for the last part (Circumstance dictates technique), I'm just going to go with my "Bread and Butter Double Leg".

The set-up:
Jabs, possibly an overhand feint or a teep. Something to get them either thinking high or moving off balance.

The Shot:
In on one knee, head belly button level, face looking to the side with my cheek to the inside of their hip (not on the side of their body, to the left or right of their center). If I'm shooting to my left (usually), wrap my right arm behind his knee, clinch with my other hand about thigh level.

The Finish:
Pull left with my arms, push right with my head while moving semi circular to my left and driving forward, both knees coming off the ground.(I believe that would be called "turning the corner" but I'm unsure, my wrestling is balls) Hopefully end up in side control or at the very least half guard. Sometime I'll do sort of a hybrid Outside trip/double leg, too. If I get deep enough inside and knee is planted close to him, I'll use a trip to assist pulling him off balance with my arms.

Pros/Cons:
+ Takes less energy than a "Driving" double leg as it's more based off of balance/counter balance.

+ Not as succeptible to being "Stuffed" and ending up in turtle position or with a guy on your back and your face on the floor because your knee is planted and your other foot remains closer to your center of gravity, it's much easier to just stand back up after he sprawls.

+ Can't get kneed once you're knee is down

+ Better ending position

- Considerably more complicated that the "Driving Double" due to the different stages or the takedown.

- You HAVE to be quick as the shot is lower that normal, it's easier to dodge or counter with a knee before your knee hits the floor.

- Not as much forward momentum as driving doubles.

- Must be timed and executed well in order to pull it off cleanly. If you miss you can't just keep going with it like a power/driving double, you have to back out and try again.
Great post! You followed the format even better than I did,which is sad since I'm the one who laid it out...

But yeah, wait, you can shoot off of a teep?! Is it off of a landed teep or a missed teep? I guess I could visualize pushing someone back with a teep and shooting right as they come back in.

I'm a big fan of your style of shooting (as I have the same one). I used to do more of a driving double but my wrestling coach blew my mind and i've never looked back.

Two of the minuses that you listed 'not as much momentum' and 'hard to follow up on' are easily overcome by little modifications. I find that having the right distance on your shot can give you TONS of penetration... and if you come to your feet smoothly (as opposed to swinging them from on one knee) you end up driving through just like the other style of takedown, albeit at an angle. Still less forward momentum, but not TOO much less.

As for the follow up, my wrestling coach insists that you can 'double up on your shots.' As in shoot again immediately after you miss, rather than disengaging. I've seen him kill backpedaling with this, since his first shot takes him pretty close, and I've even seen him make sharp changes in direction for the second shot if the guy sidestepped.

Unfortunately, I'm not a great wrestler and I often fail at both of those things, so those 'minuses' are applicable to my double legs too. There's plenty of times where I don't shoot deep enough so I have to work extra hard on the finish, and I'm not coordinated enough to double-shoot... yet.

But theoretically those weaknesses can be overcome!
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Old 01-12-2011, 02:57 AM   #13 (permalink)
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For better or worse, I always grapple as if I'm being scored by the NAGA point system, so I'm always looking to get side control as soon as possible, then get mount, and possibly the back. So being too stubborn and dumb to learn from my mistakes, I often lose control of wrestlers scrambling out from under my side control. =P
I should thank you, you are one of the reasons so many BJJ guys have a deficency in training reguarding defending Cross Body, they don't WANT to be in the bottom of Cross Body or anything, but they are so used to considering it a 1 point possition (it's 1 point right?) that they don't really consider it a big deal, but if I can elbow you in the head from Side Control, it is in fact worth ALL the points lol

Side Control is actually my primary goal possitionally on the ground
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Old 01-12-2011, 05:00 AM   #14 (permalink)
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i would much rather have a big wrestler than a slick bjj on top of me anyday, i can gogoplata wrestlers from side control
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Old 01-12-2011, 06:19 PM   #15 (permalink)
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i would much rather have a big wrestler than a slick bjj on top of me anyday, i can gogoplata wrestlers from side control
I would honestly like to know how that's even remotely possible. Are you talking about modifying it, bringing your knee up to his head and putting your shin under it and grabbing your foot over his head while putting your other leg over his back (Think Kimura from bottom position)? That seems next to impossible against a good ggrappler as he should never give you the space to get the leg under his belly and over his back.

Also, this is technically from guard, not side :P

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Originally Posted by Kin View Post
Great post! You followed the format even better than I did,which is sad since I'm the one who laid it out...

But yeah, wait, you can shoot off of a teep?! Is it off of a landed teep or a missed teep? I guess I could visualize pushing someone back with a teep and shooting right as they come back in.
The teep throws them off balance if landed correctly. Many people think "Teep" and "Front Kick" are interchangeable, they are not. A teep is landed on the hip and used to make the opponents hips shoot out rearward, bringing their head down and throwing them off balance. A front kick is landed to the abdomen and meant to be damaging. A front push kick is a mix of the two. It's landed to the abdomen and meant to push your attacker backward while doing slight damage.

To clarify, when a teep is landed, your attacking foot should slide off their hip after a successful attack, not be retracted (if you retract it, there's no pushing momentum and hence the technique fails). This sets you up in an already forward moving state with your opponent off balance.

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I'm a big fan of your style of shooting (as I have the same one). I used to do more of a driving double but my wrestling coach blew my mind and i've never looked back.
Mine was more experimentation with the takedowns themselves. I don't know much wrestling but I seem to learn a lot of technique just by watching fights and the like. I took what I learned from watching wrestling (head and hand placement so as not to get choked to death) and combined it with what I know of judo/BJJ and added the motion/counter motion philosophy of it and found a technique that's far mroe successful than your standard double. Wasn't until I started training with wrestlers that i learned to "turn the corner" when I finish though.

Quote:
Two of the minuses that you listed 'not as much momentum' and 'hard to follow up on' are easily overcome by little modifications. I find that having the right distance on your shot can give you TONS of penetration... and if you come to your feet smoothly (as opposed to swinging them from on one knee) you end up driving through just like the other style of takedown, albeit at an angle. Still less forward momentum, but not TOO much less.
I prefer planting my knee because it gives me a more solid base to stand back up if they defend it, so I'll sacrifice the little less forward momentum (which isn't needed as much with this as it's all about using leverage more so) to comepensate. Also, for my shot I go "Drop, shoot, drive" in three specific stages. The drop comes off usually a feint, the shot entails hand and head placement, the drive is me driving my weight right and my hands left. That's probably more of the reason I have less forward momentum than a standard double, too.

Quote:
As for the follow up, my wrestling coach insists that you can 'double up on your shots.' As in shoot again immediately after you miss, rather than disengaging. I've seen him kill backpedaling with this, since his first shot takes him pretty close, and I've even seen him make sharp changes in direction for the second shot if the guy sidestepped.
For a standard driving double or a partially stuffed single this is true and it's one of the main advantages of those techniques. For mine, however, I prefer to disengage and set it up again since all of my forward momentum is hard to regain from that position and drive forward without losing base. With a double, your base is always on your feet and can be moved easily, but not so much with my knee planted. Once in a while if I REALLY want to take it down I will just bring my leg up and turn it into a driving double though. If I'm fairing well on the feet though, I'll just disengage and try again.

Quote:
Unfortunately, I'm not a great wrestler and I often fail at both of those things, so those 'minuses' are applicable to my double legs too. There's plenty of times where I don't shoot deep enough so I have to work extra hard on the finish, and I'm not coordinated enough to double-shoot... yet.

But theoretically those weaknesses can be overcome!
All of those can be fixed with time! And if you find that one particular technique isn't working, DON'T BE AFRAID TO TRY IT DIFFERENT!!! Being stagnant and predictable in MMA is a sure fire way to get beaten!

Last edited by TraMaI : 01-12-2011 at 06:23 PM.
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Old 01-12-2011, 10:58 PM   #16 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TraMaI View Post
I would honestly like to know how that's even remotely possible. Are you talking about modifying it, bringing your knee up to his head and putting your shin under it and grabbing your foot over his head while putting your other leg over his back (Think Kimura from bottom position)? That seems next to impossible against a good ggrappler as he should never give you the space to get the leg under his belly and over his back.

Also, this is technically from guard, not side :P


its pretty complicated, you have to take your leg like your going for hald guard with 1 leg but then immediately go around and up the back and to the shoulder for gogoplata position, wrestlers can be pretty stupid with top control. i sparred with probably the best bjj person in the gym and i got tooled trying to have an active guard and pull off subs and as a result i got passed pretty easy
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Old 01-12-2011, 11:16 PM   #17 (permalink)
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Maybe I am stupid but a gogoplata from side is impossible.
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Old 01-13-2011, 12:16 AM   #18 (permalink)
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its pretty complicated, you have to take your leg like your going for hald guard with 1 leg but then immediately go around and up the back and to the shoulder for gogoplata position, wrestlers can be pretty stupid with top control. i sparred with probably the best bjj person in the gym and i got tooled trying to have an active guard and pull off subs and as a result i got passed pretty easy
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Maybe I am stupid but a gogoplata from side is impossible.
The way he describes it it goes as Side Control -> Transition to modified rubber guard -> gogoplata I do believe. So it's technically not a gogoplata from side control, it's a transition to it from side control though... thought I'm still not entirely clear on the "Leg up like you're going to half guard then over the shoulder....etc" part. To me it sounds like if they're on your right side you would use your left leg to go over their shoulder and secure rubber guard, but then you have no entrapping leg on their right side... so they could easily just spin out. If they're inexperienced grapplers though it may be possible as a gogo is a very "HOLY SHIT I'M DYING" submission. It's one of those where, if you're not used to it, you want out ASAP.


Also, if you get your leg over their back like that, why not just post for a sweep/stand up or take their back?
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Old 01-13-2011, 01:01 AM   #19 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TraMaI View Post
The way he describes it it goes as Side Control -> Transition to modified rubber guard -> gogoplata I do believe. So it's technically not a gogoplata from side control, it's a transition to it from side control though... thought I'm still not entirely clear on the "Leg up like you're going to half guard then over the shoulder....etc" part. To me it sounds like if they're on your right side you would use your left leg to go over their shoulder and secure rubber guard, but then you have no entrapping leg on their right side... so they could easily just spin out. If they're inexperienced grapplers though it may be possible as a gogo is a very "HOLY SHIT I'M DYING" submission. It's one of those where, if you're not used to it, you want out ASAP.


Also, if you get your leg over their back like that, why not just post for a sweep/stand up or take their back?

meh i was gassed so i just went for it, moral of the story is bjj guys are way worse than having a big wrestler on you, unlike the fitchs and sonnens would have you believe.
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Old 01-13-2011, 04:02 AM   #20 (permalink)
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Fitch isn't a wrestler so much as a very complete grappler. Sonnen has proven why, time and time again, why having a wrestler sit on top of you while you know BJJ isn't as bad as it may sound lol.
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