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post #1 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-13-2011, 03:41 PM Thread Starter
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Traditional Martial Arts

Wasnt sure where to post this so im sorry if its in the wrong place.

Was just wondering what other peoples opinions are on this.

Do traditional martial arts have any place in mma?

Do you find that tma's have appliable techniques?

My opinion is that some tma's are good and you can use them in the cage or in self defence but some arent as good in real life.

I dont think any are useless though.

Karate, Judo, Sambo, some JKD are some examples of tma's that i actually have found useful.

What do you think?

Its almost as if I like to be tapped out! lol
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post #2 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-13-2011, 06:04 PM
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Anything is useful at any time. Thats why us as fighters train everything we can get our hands on.



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post #3 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-13-2011, 09:54 PM
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It depends on how you define "traditional". There are a lot of styles/teachers/practitioners who use the word "traditional" as an excuse for not doing sparring (stating that sparring is only done in sports, which is of course absolute nonsense as i.e. Japanese traditional martial arts randori/kumite play a very important role, traditional arts from other countries as San Da or Muay Thai have their respective form of sparring) and filling the time with kata/forms.

Traditional Kodokan Judo (not Olympic Judo) for example is much like MMA with Gi. It consists of Nage-Waza (throws/take downs), Katame-Waza (grappling) as well as Atemi-Waza (striking). It's similar with Karate, in particular in such styles as Kyokushin and Ashihara Budokai.
Same goes with Боевое самбо (Combat Sambo). It is basically MMA with Gi and has all areas of fighting.

San Da and San Shou have lots to offer. Their techniques for interception of kicks and consequent throwing/sweeping of the opponent are brilliant, although until now not often used in MMA.

Muay Thai is for many the first choice to train for the striking department of MMA.

So yes, real traditional martial arts can support your MMA training very much. It's only "traditional" McDojo arts (where the tradition is basically to sell people the imagination of fight training with no bruises and other comforts) which are rather a waste of time for MMA (or any other real fight related) training.
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post #4 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-14-2011, 12:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
It depends on how you define "traditional". There are a lot of styles/teachers/practitioners who use the word "traditional" as an excuse for not doing sparring (stating that sparring is only done in sports, which is of course absolute nonsense as i.e. Japanese traditional martial arts randori/kumite play a very important role, traditional arts from other countries as San Da or Muay Thai have their respective form of sparring) and filling the time with kata/forms.

Traditional Kodokan Judo (not Olympic Judo) for example is much like MMA with Gi. It consists of Nage-Waza (throws/take downs), Katame-Waza (grappling) as well as Atemi-Waza (striking). It's similar with Karate, in particular in such styles as Kyokushin and Ashihara Budokai.
Same goes with Боевое самбо (Combat Sambo). It is basically MMA with Gi and has all areas of fighting.

San Da and San Shou have lots to offer. Their techniques for interception of kicks and consequent throwing/sweeping of the opponent are brilliant, although until now not often used in MMA.

Muay Thai is for many the first choice to train for the striking department of MMA.

So yes, real traditional martial arts can support your MMA training very much. It's only "traditional" McDojo arts (where the tradition is basically to sell people the imagination of fight training with no bruises and other comforts) which are rather a waste of time for MMA (or any other real fight related) training.
Great post -repped
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post #5 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-14-2011, 12:39 PM Thread Starter
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Great post -repped
Exactly. I dont know alot about martial arts in that respect other than the ones I have learned. Like Sambo which was my first one, Judo, Freestyle Karate which focussed more on sparring than anything else, I did try Trad ju-jitsu which i didnt find usefull because there was hardly and sparring and, like aikido and so on they were compliant training partners.

I think thats what bugs me most about, as you said pseudo-trad martial arts. Its the fact that its always with a compliant opponent.

No one in real situations is going to let you perform a technique on them.

Combat Sambo is my favourite so far. MMA with a gi. The only downside i found was that you cant choke your opponent.

Its almost as if I like to be tapped out! lol
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post #6 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-14-2011, 01:25 PM
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I think there are aspects of almost every single TMA that are applicable for MMA competition or training. However in many of these cases, these aspects are not necessarily the best tool for developing those areas.

I'll give a few example of what I mean:

Shotokan Karate: Generally Shotokan Karate, aside from the kumite. The Art is very devoted to deep explosive stances. This apply's to stand up fighting from the outside. Machida's defensive style with explosive attacks from the outside shows its Shotokan very clearly.

Wing Chun Kung Fu: Wing Chun is a Southern Style of Kung Fu, which means it leans more towards deep rooting, low kicks, and straight punching. Low kicks, rooting for sprawls, and straight punching describes GSP's strategy against Koscheck.

Jiu Jitsu: REAL Japanese Jiu Jitsu (the forebearer of almost every grappling Art in the world) Includes stand up strikes, throws/takedowns andd ground strikes, and is designed to put the opponent on his back, hit him, and then run away (getting at self-defense).

TMA's have their place in any fighter's training routines, and have as much potential as any other Martial Art. The issue that arises with TMA's is that even those designed for competition, aren't designed for MMA competition. Even MT alone doesn't include everything involved in MMA and requires alteration to adhere to the rules and defend the opposiion's use of the rules of the sport.



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post #7 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-27-2011, 01:25 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lazyfighter View Post
Wasnt sure where to post this so im sorry if its in the wrong place.

Was just wondering what other peoples opinions are on this.
I suppose this is as good a place as any.

Quote:
Do traditional martial arts have any place in mma?
That depends on what you mean by "traditional" martial arts. You mentioned, for example, "Jeet Kune Do," which is definitely not a traditional martial art if we're defining it based on time frame, since it doesn't exist until the later half of the 20th century.

But I think they do. There's a lot coming out of muay thai, and kyokushin karate, and judo (if you consider judo "traditional;" I tend not to identify it that way).

Like I said, though, you can define boxing as "traditional." You can define wrestling as "traditional." If you're defining traditional marts in terms of age, they probably qualify, depending on how you read the history.

If you're defining it as opposed to "sports martial arts, then it's a little different, and I'd been inclined to say that martial arts that don't have a sport embedded in them probably don't have much of a place in MMA training.


Quote:
Do you find that tma's have appliable techniques?
Like I said, that depends on the definition of "traditional."

But if we're defining it in terms of age, then they definitely do. Systems like muay thai obviously do, but so do lesser known systems.


Quote:
My opinion is that some tma's are good and you can use them in the cage or in self defence but some arent as good in real life.

I dont think any are useless though.

Karate, Judo, Sambo, some JKD are some examples of tma's that i actually have found useful.
It's worth pointing out that under both definitions I laid out for traditional above exclude both judo and sambo.

Karate definitely qualifies at a traditional martial art, but it varies so much from style to style that it's hard to talk about generically.



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post #8 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-27-2011, 07:50 AM
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The term traditional martial art confuses me as well. Why is judo (f. 1882) and jeet kun do (f. 1967) traditional, while wrestling (stemming from antiquity, modern greco-roman rules established 1848) and boxing (also from antiquity, Queensberry rules established 1867) aren't?
Asian = traditional?
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post #9 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-28-2011, 08:31 AM Thread Starter
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The term traditional martial art confuses me as well. Why is judo (f. 1882) and jeet kun do (f. 1967) traditional, while wrestling (stemming from antiquity, modern greco-roman rules established 1848) and boxing (also from antiquity, Queensberry rules established 1867) aren't?
Asian = traditional?
Not at all i just wrote off the top of my head.

It appears that my questions was a tad bit of a mistake here. What I meant by TMA is what everyone refers by TMA.

I know that wrestling, boxing and so on are traditional. And that the likes of judo arent seeing as ju-jitsu was the predecessor of judo.

What i meant was the stereo typical TMA. The ones everyone refers to as a TMA. Like the ones you can go to at your local sports centre and get a black belt in for doing the correct things.
Thats what I meant.

I didnt realise i was misunderstood

Its almost as if I like to be tapped out! lol
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post #10 of 18 (permalink) Old 01-28-2011, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by lazyfighter View Post
Not at all i just wrote off the top of my head.

It appears that my questions was a tad bit of a mistake here. What I meant by TMA is what everyone refers by TMA.

I know that wrestling, boxing and so on are traditional. And that the likes of judo arent seeing as ju-jitsu was the predecessor of judo.

What i meant was the stereo typical TMA. The ones everyone refers to as a TMA. Like the ones you can go to at your local sports centre and get a black belt in for doing the correct things.
Thats what I meant.

I didnt realise i was misunderstood
I thought it made perfect sense in the concext of the descriptions of Martial Arts in common usage. Arguing semantics (as done previously) doesn't answer the question, or further debate.

In that common usage, especially from the MMA fighter's mind, there are "traditional" Martial Arts, and "sport" Martial Arts.

Within the realm of Traditionals you have things like:
Japanese Jui-jitsu
Karate
Kung Fu
Tai-Chi
Muay Boran, etc

Within the realm of Sports you have:
American Wrestling
Brazilian JJ
Boxing
Muay Thai
Sanda
Judo, etc

However, there are crossover Martial Arts which include both traditionalist ideals (a subjective concept, but one that is commonly recognizable). As well as sport competition.
Judo
Most forms of Karate
Wing Chun as well as a few other variations of Kung Fu
Judo, etc

As said before there are are applications for most of the techniques and methods of TMAs. I don't know if TMAs (arts not necessarily originally designed for combat sports) are applicable in every way, or even if they are the best ways to train certain attributes. But certain training ideas, and the philophical implications, at least to me, have their place.



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