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Old 06-13-2008, 03:44 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Damone View Post
Not all the time, Marcelo didn't submit his first MMA opponent, and I wouldn't say his opponent was very good at MMA grappling.

Traven's way better a pure grappling than Frank Mir, but Traven got armbarred in their fight.

Granted, Jacare has way more fights and experience than those 2, but still, not all the time does a ADCC grappler beat a pure MMA grappler in an MMA setting once it hits the ground.
I totally agree here Damone, but personally I think Jacare has way more agressiveness than for instance Marcelo Garcia. Marcelo is awesome and all (he's my grappling idol), but he is (according to Ediie Bravo) like the worlds nicest guy whom I couldn't picture fight anybody with his fists or using violence at all. It's like he don't want to hurt his opponents, but MMA is a violent sport so he'll have to get a bit of the old hatin' in if he wants to win. Also a LOT of Marcelo's moves are tailor made for grappling not involving punching. A lot of grapplers have this problem, hell even Demian Maia showed us a lot of this in his fight against Herman.

Jacare, IMO, has both great MMA grappling and the aggressiveness chin to take a lickin' and keep on tickin'. He has the drive to hurt his opponent if his opponent hurts him.

But one could easily make the argument that Miller wins, of course.
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Old 06-13-2008, 03:57 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Jacare isn't a pure BJJ guy. Also when a world class grappler faces a very good mma grappler on the ground the world class guy has the advantage.
Werdum had the advantage against Nog? Just asking because I haven't seen the fight.
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Old 06-13-2008, 05:01 PM   #23 (permalink)
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If we hand out "advantages" based on grappling pedigrees, then yes, Werdum had a significant one over Nog. However, this is MMA--not ADCC or the Mundials--and Nogueira managed to hang with Werdum on the ground.

Pedigree can indicate a lot, but honestly it's not a definitive way of looking at who will have the edge on the ground. Look at UFC 85 for instance:

Kevin Burns--a recent blue belt in BJJ--submitted Roan Carneiro--a world-class BJJ champion--with a triangle-choke. No one saw that coming, but it goes to show that MMA-BJJ and standard BJJ are not synonymous in the least.
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Old 06-13-2008, 06:38 PM   #24 (permalink)
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I nearly cried when I found out that Burns subbed Roan.

Miller vs Jacare could be FOTN.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:32 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fedor>all View Post
If we hand out "advantages" based on grappling pedigrees, then yes, Werdum had a significant one over Nog. However, this is MMA--not ADCC or the Mundials--and Nogueira managed to hang with Werdum on the ground.

Pedigree can indicate a lot, but honestly it's not a definitive way of looking at who will have the edge on the ground. Look at UFC 85 for instance:

Kevin Burns--a recent blue belt in BJJ--submitted Roan Carneiro--a world-class BJJ champion--with a triangle-choke. No one saw that coming, but it goes to show that MMA-BJJ and standard BJJ are not synonymous in the least.
So Nog could hang with Werdum in the ground even though Werdum has the better grappling pedigree, thanks. Pretty much confirms that MMA grappling!=Grappling.
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Old 06-13-2008, 07:55 PM   #26 (permalink)
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So Nog could hang with Werdum in the ground even though Werdum has the better grappling pedigree, thanks. Pretty much confirms that MMA grappling!=Grappling.
Same goes for Shinya Aoki. He is known for being a grappling monster in the MMA world but I do not know about him in pure grappling. Anyone want to clarify his jiu jitsu background? I mean, he is a black belt at Jiu jitsu and Judo and I know he lost against a Gracie in an ADCC tournament but has he done anything else? (In pure grappling)
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Old 06-13-2008, 08:58 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Aoki's good at pure grappling, especially with a gi. He broke Hironaka's armbar in a swank manner in a pure grappling fight, which was cool. He also does some pure grappling matches on MMA shows (In the ring), which is cool. He tapped one guy with a freakin' gogo while he (Shinya) was on top. Yes, you read that right.

Aoki lost to the elite grapplers. He's no Marcelo, but he can succeed in pure grappling. He's a great MMA grappler, though, probably the best right now.
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Old 06-13-2008, 09:26 PM   #28 (permalink)
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I actually believe Jacare will sub Mayhem. Then I get to watch him do the beyond awesome alligator crawl.
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Old 06-13-2008, 10:01 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Old 06-13-2008, 11:36 PM   #30 (permalink)
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I would say Werdum is better than Nog on the ground. When Werdum was on top of Nog in their fight Nog got mounted. When Nog was on top of Werdum he was unable to do anything.
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