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Old 07-29-2012, 06:11 PM   #11 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Voiceless View Post
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I'm not even sure if that's true. In Germany or France and most of Europe, you don't have more deaths or more crimes, even though guns are pretty illegal (with few exceptions) and for criminals it's not hard to get guns on the black market.

I'm not arguing for or against banning guns. I just think that the "the more guns are around, the safer it is" argument isn't valid.
As is shooting people most of the time.

It might not be true in europe, but it is in america. Sadly its become such a point of interest there are tons of studies done about just this sort of thing. One book titled "More guns, Less crime" came out in the late 90s. John Lott, wrote it and it was full of the most rigorously comprehensive data analysis ever conducted on crime statistics and gun laws. It brought to light tons of common misconceptions about the relationship of guns, crime, and violence. Its for these very reasons guns are still so prevalent here in America, the hard evidence suggests guns are not the cause of crime or violence and actually quite the opposite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/More_Guns,_Less_Crime

Personally I think guns are fine under a set of rules. There are some guns I feel should be more heavily regulated than they are today. Those kinds of guns are the high capacity hand guns and rifles.
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Old 07-29-2012, 07:14 PM   #12 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xeberus View Post
As is shooting people most of the time.
That's a false comparison (I guess you referred to the drunk driving).

Forbidding to drive drunk would be comparable to carry a gun, as those two HAVE THE POTENTIAL to harm other people. Forbidding to run other people over with your car would be comparable to shoot people, as both of these actions actually DO harm to other people.
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Old 07-29-2012, 07:39 PM   #13 (permalink)
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Honestly, it might seem weird but guns really aren't so bad. It's probably hard to see things from my perspective, most first world countries are much stricter on firearms. However, we can probably agree to disagree.

But if you ever get a chance to shoot id recommend giving it a shot, it's pretty fun
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Old 08-02-2012, 09:35 AM   #14 (permalink)
 
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I understand that the right to own weapons is an American institution - and the way the system is put together, you can't ban guns because "people feel they need guns to protect themselves from bad people with guns."

But - if a nation was to be born right this moment and built from the ground up with "European" gun control that would work out as well. It's two different approaches to the same problem; people need to feel safe.

The book you mentioned "More guns, Less crime" sounds very interesting and probably applies much better to US society than it does to any European

I'm not saying one way is better than the other, different strokes for different folks

I just realized I have no idea where I'm going with this - my bad
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Old 08-02-2012, 10:42 AM   #15 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xeberus View Post
However, we can probably agree to disagree.
So far, there is no need or even reason for that. As I said:
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I'm not arguing for or against banning guns.
I've only discussed the validity of the arguments and comparisons, not about the subject of guns. That's two different things.

If at a giving time I entered the discussion about guns (or any other subject) and we didn't get to an agreement on the topic, then I will happily agree to disagree with you
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Old 08-02-2012, 04:37 PM   #16 (permalink)
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@bud you sir are absolutely right. Definitely not saying Europe needs to change its laws, it works over there.

There is one thing I've yet to bring up, America is a huge place and there are wild animals here that can kill people. Mostly wolves, bears, coyotes, wild dogs, mountain lions, bob cats etc.

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So far, there is no need or even reason for that. As I said:


I've only discussed the validity of the arguments and comparisons, not about the subject of guns. That's two different things.

If at a giving time I entered the discussion about guns (or any other subject) and we didn't get to an agreement on the topic, then I will happily agree to disagree with you
There actually is a need for it.

When I made this thread I came in thinking "oh woah, there is not a lot of knowledge about guns on the forum, I'll make an answer/question thread where I can inform people, it's gonna be easy". I realize now that cultural differences are too great to over come emotional and irrational fear of firearms. I've really put out a ton of information, evidence, studies and statistics about gun ownership and crime. But it's not enough, it's something people feel strongly about. It's something like religion or politics, and I didn't see it that way when I started this thread. So far it's kind of just been bickering and no substance in discussions. Ultimately I just wanted to put the information out there for you guys and not try to win an argument.
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Old 08-07-2012, 12:15 PM   #17 (permalink)
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I don't like these kind of statistics. Nobody in this world can diagnose death by cigarette or fast food. It's not like you have to eat fast food to get a heart disease and there are hundreds of causes for cancer. All these numbers are basically fake and all they do is shock people.

I don't really have anything to contribute to the actual discussion.
I agree. I would love to see the study done to get those results, especially for second hand smoke. How on earth could they prove that? They lived with someone who smoked? That leaves hundreds of other variables. Maybe they worked in a department store with asbestos? Eating fast food? Ridiculous. You could eat fast food every day and if you balance it with lots of other healthy foods and exercise it wont kill you.

The only thing I know for sure, and I don't need weak study or stat to prove it, is that you can't shoot anyone if you don't own a gun. That's enough for me, because I don't want to shoot anyone, or have anyone shoot me with my gun. If everyone thought this way there would be less deaths in which a gun is used (hell maybe there will be the same number of deaths, just from crossbows instead).
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Old 08-07-2012, 03:52 PM   #18 (permalink)
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I've heard two people argue that cigarettes and their second hand smoke don't kill people, even just speculating, in my entire life. Both times were in this thread. I know that in germany smoking is a huge thing, I've been there and the bars are just fog banks of smoke. But there have been hundreds of studies of second hand smoke alone, the correlation between breathing secondary smoke and the massive increased risk of cancer or cardiovascular disease are undeniable. The cigarette companies are huge, they have billions of dollars, the best lawyers who've ever lived and they still have to put this on their packs:



What blows my mind is that they still convince people to buy and smoke their product. I mean they even tell you, to your face "hey our product kills people, and probably you if you smoke for the duration of your life". I'm not saying you can't smoke or that you shouldnt, but there is no speculation or room to argue about whether cigarettes kill people or not.

Look, everyone gets sick and dies, maybe at the hospital if you come in smelling of smoke and check the box that says [smoker] and they happen to see that people who do just that end up 3:1 for things like heart disease and lung cancer and premature death that might be an indicator of smoking being dangerous.
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Old 08-07-2012, 04:34 PM   #19 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by xeberus View Post
I've heard two people argue that cigarettes and their second hand smoke don't kill people, even just speculating, in my entire life. Both times were in this thread. I know that in germany smoking is a huge thing, I've been there and the bars are just fog banks of smoke.
Not anymore. German parliament has passed a law that forbids smoking in bars which have no separate smoking room. It's probably one of the best laws they ever passed. Now you can go to Germany again without being afraid of getting lung cancer when visiting a bar, restaurant, club or any public room.

Quote:
But there have been hundreds of studies of second hand smoke alone, the correlation between breathing secondary smoke and the massive increased risk of cancer or cardiovascular disease are undeniable. The cigarette companies are huge, they have billions of dollars, the best lawyers who've ever lived and they still have to put this on their packs:



What blows my mind is that they still convince people to buy and smoke their product. I mean they even tell you, to your face "hey our product kills people, and probably you if you smoke for the duration of your life". I'm not saying you can't smoke or that you shouldnt, but there is no speculation or room to argue about whether cigarettes kill people or not.

Look, everyone gets sick and dies, maybe at the hospital if you come in smelling of smoke and check the box that says [smoker] and they happen to see that people who do just that end up 3:1 for things like heart disease and lung cancer and premature death that might be an indicator of smoking being dangerous.
That shows how addictive cigarettes actually are. It's not even that much the physical addiction, but much more the subconscious psychological addiction, because smoking sneaks in you everyday habits. I know so many people, smart people, who have tried to stop for so long, but they couldn't, because it would mean to drastically change their life, which, apart from smoking, is fine. It's not like heroin junkies whose lives are totally messed up.

And the problem is that it's a long term addiction. Most smokers start when they are pretty young. They start in their adolescence "to be cool". At that age it's even easier to get addicted. And most people who want to stop are at least in their mid-twenties or over thirty, that makes more than ten years of addictive every day habits. No wonder it's that hard to stop.

That guy has an idea to treat the problem and I think it could really work:

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Old 08-07-2012, 06:39 PM   #20 (permalink)
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Its a good to mot be able to smoke in bars but wjere im from its getting out of hand. last year they passed a law so you cant smoke on patios at bars, now they passed a law saying you cant smoke in public parks.

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