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post #11 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 05:51 AM Thread Starter
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Fred Ettish.
Fair enough reply, but then how is Kickboxing different? Chuck Liddell and Overeem are many credited as Kickboxers and had to learn grappling just to avoid takedowns. Check out JDS, the guy is a boxer he had to learn BJJ but we never saw him using his ground game.
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post #12 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 05:57 AM
 
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Fair enough reply, but then how is Kickboxing different? Chuck Liddell and Overeem are many credited as Kickboxers and had to learn grappling just to avoid takedowns. Check out JDS, the guy is a boxer he had to learn BJJ but we never saw him using his ground game.
One art on it's own will never do well in MMA. Chuck already had an insanely strong wrestling base from college, that transferred defensively very well into MMA.

Chuck is more of a Karate guy anyways.

The main reason Karate is so disdained(i don't believe it is anymore, but for the sake of argument), I think, is that there are so many forms of it, and some extremely incompetent instructors out there in the 'mc dojos' where everyone gets a BB within a year, yet couldn't defend themselves from a paper bag.

Edit - Also, check out Michael "Venom" Page, one of the most exciting Karate guys and prospects out there






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post #13 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 06:03 AM Thread Starter
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That maybe, as far as practicality and conditioning goes, Kyokushin is topnotch style to begin with I think. They have fewer Kata's and conditioning is more. I love how they use straight kicks and not so much bent in their kicks. Like Overeem has unlike Chuck Liddell, his kicks are not so angular.
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post #14 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 06:12 AM
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Added the video to bolster your statement. This has been answered throughout the last 20 years of the sport which probably Old Fan and myself have seen LIVE from the start.

The karate that is learned is not very applicable to MMA prior to the nascent of MMA because it's for self defense as is most traditional arts classes. Everyone else uses some aspects (spinning side kick, some stance, punching techniques), but once you're fighting another striker the dynamic of the fight changes because you have to use different kinds of movement. Then once you're facing a grappler the dynamic changes again.

As Old Fan mentioned Machida is learning from a Shotokan master. They've tailored it to an MMA setting. He's one of the few that uses the traditional stance and fight system in it's totality.

I don't think people shit on it for the sake of it at least not any more. Many in the UFC are karate practitioners including GSP. Some do Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, wu shu (Roy Nelson) shaolin (Dan Hardy), Capoeria, and many more.

The answer to this was done 20 years ago. Every decade the game evolves. We've now come to the point where each champion is proficient with at least two to three different kinds martial arts.

Unfortunately the newer athletes will be jumping straight into the hybrid mma classes where some of the traditional values will be lost.

Look at Lyoto Machida vs Shogun I and II. Muay Thai generally speaking is the most effective in an MMA setting and in the streets. You need to take muay thai classes to understand the difference. Karate, Tae kwon objective is to essentially disarm an opponent using point systems. Muay thai is aimed to BREAK YOU hence why there's elbows, knees, and kicks where you use your entire hip to swivel and chop your opponent.

Anyways take it for what it is. My advice go to a local MMA gym and challenge/spar with a muay thai intermediate student and see for yourself how effective karate is.

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post #15 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-25-2013, 06:27 AM Thread Starter
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Originally Posted by No_Mercy View Post
Added the video to bolster your statement. This has been answered throughout the last 20 years of the sport which probably Old Fan and myself have seen LIVE from the start.

The karate that is learned not very applicable to MMA prior to the nascent of MMA because it's for self defense as is most traditional arts classes. Everyone else uses some aspects (spinning side kick, some stance, punching techniques), but once you're fighting another striker the dynamic of the fight changes because you have to use different kinds of movement. Then once you're facing a grappler the dynamic changes again.

As Old Fan mentioned Machida is learning from a Shotokan master. They've tailered it to an MMA setting. He's one of the few that uses the traditional stance.

I don't people shit on it for the sake of it at least not any more. Many in the UFC are karate practitioners including GSP. Some do Tae Kwon Do, Jeet Kune Do, wu shu (Roy Nelson) shaolin (Dan Hardy), Capoeria, and many more.

The answer to this was done 20 years ago. Every decade the game evolves. We've now come to the point where each champion is proficient with at least two to three different kinds martial arts.

Unfortunately the newer athletes will be jumping straight into the hybrid mma classes where some of the traditional values will be lost.
i think when we speak of MMA these days we speak of 3 arts to be precise that are BJJ, Kickboxing and Greco Roman Wrestling and if you have a strong hold on these three you are considered a good mma fighter, ofc individual capabilities counts aswell.

Also, how come kickboxing is so popularized instead of karate in mma world, i mean Javier Mendaz have a kickboxing academy called AKA and so are other camps like Golden Glory who offer to teach kickboxing as a striking base for any athlete, plus top striking coaches like Greg Nelson, Erik Paulson etc are all credited for Kickboxing abilities regardless of all the arts they have under their belt.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by No_Mercy View Post

Look at Lyoto Machida vs Shogun I and II. Muay Thai generally speaking is the most effective in an MMA setting and in the streets. You need to take muay thai classes to understand the difference. Karate, Tae kwon objective is to essentially disarm an opponent using point systems. Muay thai is aimed to BREAK YOU hence why there's elbows, knees, and kicks where you use your entire hip to swivel and chop your opponent.

Anyways take it for what it is. My advice go to a local MMA gym and challenge/spar with a muay thai intermediate student and see for yourself how effective karate is.
Never mind, you have answered. I guess when it comes to Kickboxing classes, effectiveness counts. I think 80% of the kickboxing schools suck dick. And you can see in the video I posted early where an amature karate black belt beats a kickboxers ass. I all comes down to the instructors at the end.
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post #16 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 03:03 PM
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For me machida's style is the best in mma.


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post #17 of 17 (permalink) Old 02-26-2013, 03:59 PM
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In addition to what's been posted, I suspect it has a lot to do with the individual. I mean, how many guys are physically capable of doing what Lyoto does, at the level he does it in the UFC?

You would have to be able to couple a lot speed with reflexes. And not just striking speed, but movement in the octagon. Not sure how many guys can do that using primarily Karate.

And let's not forget that he uses Sumo and Judo as well.

While his stance and striking approach are undeniably Karate-centric, the other parts of his MMA recipe are equally as important to what he does.

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