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Old 05-31-2008, 12:49 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by milkkid291 View Post
US supported him during the Iran/Iraq war, but, look at the weapons Iraq used back in the 80's and ask yourself,

"Was the United States the main military supporter for Iraq? Or, if I look at these weapons and research where they came from, could I can trace them back to the USSR?"

From 1945-1991, USSR was our primary enemy. That's why we supported nations like Afghanistan when the USSR invaded.
Not only did they support him during the iran Iraq war it is basically an open secret that Saddam was a CIA asset from as far back as the mid 60's and that CIA involvement was a major reason for him getting to paoer in the first place. Despite pubicly scolding Saddam for gas attacks on Kurds in 84 they did not actually take any major action against him until 91.

It seems unlikely that USSR would have given weapons to a country that was clearly allied with their enemy.
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Old 05-31-2008, 03:12 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by milkkid291 View Post
US supported him during the Iran/Iraq war, but, look at the weapons Iraq used back in the 80's and ask yourself,

"Was the United States the main military supporter for Iraq? Or, if I look at these weapons and research where they came from, could I can trace them back to the USSR?"

From 1945-1991, USSR was our primary enemy. That's why we supported nations like Afghanistan when the USSR invaded.
Most of Hussein's chemical weapons came from the US (through the defense department as well as corporations like DOW chemical) and Germany. The USSR's involvement came earlier and centered around nuclear ambitions and ended around the time the Iraq-Iran war started. Ironically, the US didn't hesitate to pick up where the USSR left off and in fact, escalated the level of support.

What's interesting about the whole 'USSR was our enemy' justification for much of the actions of the Cold War is that our enemy was using the exact same justification. For example, the USSR's reasoning for invading Afghanistan was the US's sponsoring of a treaty between Israel and Egypt, the selling of arms (chemical weapons included) to Saudi Arabia, Iraq and others, taking sided in internal civil wars, the bombing of uncooperative nations, etc. in efforts to control and shift the balance of power in the region toward the West.

Countless millions of innocent people died while these two cultures justifie stealing the resources of various third world countries under the guise of self-defense and liberation.
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Old 05-31-2008, 03:16 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
Countless millions of innocent people died while these two cultures justifie stealing the resources of various third world countries under the guise of self-defense and liberation.
And it is in retaliation against this that support rose with groups like Al Quaeda.
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Old 05-31-2008, 03:32 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by yorT View Post
I can see that explaination, but what do you mean by "If he's evil?" You don't think he is an evil man?
Evil is a funny thing. We label Hussein 'evil' for killing over a hundred thousand Kurds, right? By that reasoning, shouldn't leaders who supervised the systemic extermination of over 10 million people be that much more evil? If we're talking about Hitler and his Nazi party exterminating Jews, gypsies, and communists, sure, or if we're talking about the Bolsheviks suppressing dissent, of course, but if we're talking about American Presidents using guns, biological warfare, and broken treaties to eliminate an entire race of people and expand the nation in the name of God, then its heroic and is referred to as destiny.

It's all relative, and the US is hardly in the moral position to mete out justice for the rest of the world (Ironically, the US continues to oppose a neutral, international court designed to do exactly that). There are countless examples why.

In the end, the truth just doesn't sell as well. If the Presidents who oversaw Vietnam said that we were taking over for the French because we wanted cheap/free access to rubber, tin, oil, and sugar, and that it would cost nearly 60,000 young American and 3 million innocent civilian lives, the American people would have just offered to pay a bit more for their tires.

So, sure, you can say Hussein was evil, but again, what does that mean for the US?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Rogan
That longing to return to the retarded past can only be born of some collective, subconscious, internal desire to try to turn back the clock on humanity and halt our obvious progression towards the inevitable zombie apocalypse of 2012.

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Old 05-31-2008, 03:48 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FunkYou View Post
And it is in retaliation against this that support rose with groups like Al Quaeda.
Yep, and our post 9/11 actions have only served to make recruitment even easier for these groups. In many cases, it's made recruitment unnecessary. The London bombings were carried out by native Britains who had never met or received an order from Al Queda or any other terrorist organization. The same is true of the bombings and Spain and the accused wannabe terrorists in Florida. It's not the teachings of Islam that's inspiring these people; it's the list of grievances against the US in foreign affairs and the belief that fire is the only way to fight fire.
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Originally Posted by Joe Rogan
That longing to return to the retarded past can only be born of some collective, subconscious, internal desire to try to turn back the clock on humanity and halt our obvious progression towards the inevitable zombie apocalypse of 2012.
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Old 05-31-2008, 06:28 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
Evil is a funny thing. We label Hussein 'evil' for killing over a hundred thousand Kurds, right? By that reasoning, shouldn't leaders who supervised the systemic extermination of over 10 million people be that much more evil? If we're talking about Hitler and his Nazi party exterminating Jews, gypsies, and communists, sure, or if we're talking about the Bolsheviks suppressing dissent, of course, but if we're talking about American Presidents using guns, biological warfare, and broken treaties to eliminate an entire race of people and expand the nation in the name of God, then its heroic and is referred to as destiny.

It's all relative, and the US is hardly in the moral position to mete out justice for the rest of the world (Ironically, the US continues to oppose a neutral, international court designed to do exactly that). There are countless examples why.

In the end, the truth just doesn't sell as well. If the Presidents who oversaw Vietnam said that we were taking over for the French because we wanted cheap/free access to rubber, tin, oil, and sugar, and that it would cost nearly 60,000 young American and 3 million innocent civilian lives, the American people would have just offered to pay a bit more for their tires.

So, sure, you can say Hussein was evil, but again, what does that mean for the US?
You might want to read this book about Saddam Hussein, he did more than just kill Kurds. http://www.amazon.com/Saddam-Hussein.../dp/0802139787

So you are saying the U.S. is just as "Evil" as Hussein?
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Old 05-31-2008, 06:53 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by yorT View Post
You might want to read this book about Saddam Hussein, he did more than just kill Kurds. http://www.amazon.com/Saddam-Hussein.../dp/0802139787
I was just giving what, in my experience, has been the most common example people bring up when condemning Hussein.. I'm well aware of what Hussein did as well as what was done to him over the second half of the last century. If you'd like, we can match a Hussein act point for point with a US act, but I've got to warn you, I don't think the dictator would fare well, even if we limited the time span for the US to Hussein's reign.

Quote:
So you are saying the U.S. is just as "Evil" as Hussein?
No, I'm asking those that have declared Hussein to be 'evil' where the US sits on the spectrum of 'evil' when its actions are measured objectively against Hussein's.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Rogan
That longing to return to the retarded past can only be born of some collective, subconscious, internal desire to try to turn back the clock on humanity and halt our obvious progression towards the inevitable zombie apocalypse of 2012.
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Old 05-31-2008, 08:28 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkYou View Post
Not only did they support him during the iran Iraq war it is basically an open secret that Saddam was a CIA asset from as far back as the mid 60's and that CIA involvement was a major reason for him getting to paoer in the first place. Despite pubicly scolding Saddam for gas attacks on Kurds in 84 they did not actually take any major action against him until 91.

It seems unlikely that USSR would have given weapons to a country that was clearly allied with their enemy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FunkYou View Post
It seems unlikely that USSR would have given weapons to a country that was clearly allied with their enemy.
Please, go open a military book and learn where military equipment originates from.

T-55 (Russian)



BMP-3 (Russian)



BTR-60 (Russian)



Mig-21 (Russian)



AK-47 (Russian)



Hind (Russian)




There are tons more, but I don't want to type a book of what weapons Iraq bought from Russia. Seems kind of weird all of these weapon systems were Russian made doesn't it?


Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
Most of Hussein's chemical weapons came from the US (through the defense department as well as corporations like DOW chemical) and Germany. The USSR's involvement came earlier and centered around nuclear ambitions and ended around the time the Iraq-Iran war started. Ironically, the US didn't hesitate to pick up where the USSR left off and in fact, escalated the level of support.

What's interesting about the whole 'USSR was our enemy' justification for much of the actions of the Cold War is that our enemy was using the exact same justification. For example, the USSR's reasoning for invading Afghanistan was the US's sponsoring of a treaty between Israel and Egypt, the selling of arms (chemical weapons included) to Saudi Arabia, Iraq and others, taking sided in internal civil wars, the bombing of uncooperative nations, etc. in efforts to control and shift the balance of power in the region toward the West.

Countless millions of innocent people died while these two cultures justifie stealing the resources of various third world countries under the guise of self-defense and liberation.
Please, why don't you include the millions that have suffered under these nations ruled by dictators and have immigrated to the U.S.

So we only protected South Korea for our own interests to steal Korea's resources? Take a look at North Korea, then take a look at South Korea. Seems to me South is doing much better than their counterparts, the North.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
Yep, and our post 9/11 actions have only served to make recruitment even easier for these groups. In many cases, it's made recruitment unnecessary. The London bombings were carried out by native Britains who had never met or received an order from Al Queda or any other terrorist organization. The same is true of the bombings and Spain and the accused wannabe terrorists in Florida. It's not the teachings of Islam that's inspiring these people; it's the list of grievances against the US in foreign affairs and the belief that fire is the only way to fight fire.
Seriously, where do you get your information besides the internet and biased-media?

You seem to get Muslims, and Islamic Extremists mixed up.
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Old 05-31-2008, 09:25 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by milkkid291 View Post
Please, why don't you include the millions that have suffered under these nations ruled by dictators and have immigrated to the U.S.
Because that wasn't part of the discussion, I suppose, and because it wouldn't undo any of the actions taken by the US. Not to mention, we'd have to address how the US has played major roles in creating the nightmare scenario those immigrants are fleeing.

Quote:
So we only protected South Korea for our own interests to steal Korea's resources? Take a look at North Korea, then take a look at South Korea. Seems to me South is doing much better than their counterparts, the North.
Another example that proves my point. The US 'won' in Korea. The result? A nation split down the middle. The losing side gets its innocent people starved to death by sanctions, while the US has to spend and indefinite amount of time (55 years so far) and an incalculable amount of money propping the 'winning' side up with its military. Meanwhile, the calls for unification and, both national and family, and US troop withdrawal continue to grow from the North and South. The US continues to refuse, though, because the so-called 'security blanket' insures that the far East's vast economic power remains guided by the US.

Compare that to Vietnam, where the US 'lost.' You have a unified country sharing fully normalized relations with the US and a huge tourism industry largely supported by the US.

Now, it's obviously more complex than this, so feel free to bring up anything you feel is relevant.

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Seriously, where do you get your information besides the internet and biased-media?
You just posted an internet link, and what, exactly do you find biased about anything I've posted?

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You seem to get Muslims, and Islamic Extremists mixed up.
I think I made the distinction very clearly when I pointed out that Bin Laden's followers weren't inspired by the Koran, but by his condemnations of US policy. Please point out where you feel I've gotten confused.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Rogan
That longing to return to the retarded past can only be born of some collective, subconscious, internal desire to try to turn back the clock on humanity and halt our obvious progression towards the inevitable zombie apocalypse of 2012.

Last edited by jasvll : 05-31-2008 at 09:31 PM.
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