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Old 03-10-2009, 10:04 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Fedor>all View Post
lol

I find people that describe art as "pretentious" are just throwing a reaction (often out of insecurity) due to a lack of understanding, or a lack of willingness to look further into the art. People who watch Week End might be bored as hell and don't get the critique of capitalism, the intertextual references literature, paintings, other films, etc. If you're willing to read into piece of art with context, your appreciation of it will increase.
I don't find art pretentious. I find abstract art pretentious. Its not an insecurity, its that I happen to be a pretty talented artist ( drawing ) and when people try to tell me that abstract artist have talent I don't see it. It takes no talent to draw or paint the things that they do.

To me its equal to calling somebody that can dribble a basketball but not make a basket a good basketball player. Or somebody that can shadow box themselves in the mirror but gets KTFO in a fight a good fighter.

To me its all about the end product. If the end product sucks I don't care how much thought went into making it.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:07 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Freelancer View Post
Not every art should be approached the same way. You won't listen to opera while driving to work. You must concentrate on it and you must know what is the topic of the aria you listen, in order to fully understand and enjoy the opera.

To fully appreciate political movies you must have some knowledge about politics.

Beauty of the art isn't always caught at the glance. Sometimes it takes a closer look.
Yes, but you look further into political movies because you enjoy politics or the story it had. It was interesting to you to start with. You listen to an opera because you enjoy the sound initially, only after the initial interest will you look further into what they are meaning, the storyline, other works by the composer/singers/orchestra.

If the opera sounds awful. I doubt it would get the same involvement. Unless you are already invested into the artists and look into why it's so different to what you have come to expect.

There was already something to get you interested and so it suceeded. If you need to dig to actually get that first interest it has failed. Every piece of art whether it be music, dance, painting, sculpture, literature whatever have you needs that first spark to get someone interested. The spark may differ for some people, obviously, but it needs to be there in some form.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:13 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Okay, what's more beautiful? (Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, shut up ass.)

Picasso did both of these. If you didn't learn about abstract art, which one would you say is better and harder to do??

http://100swallows.files.wordpress.c...casso-1897.jpg

This, which he did when 17, or the picture included?
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:18 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Okay, what's more beautiful? (Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, shut up ass.)

Picasso did both of these. If you didn't learn about abstract art, which one would you say is better and harder to do??
CB, I only see one picture.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:33 PM   #25 (permalink)
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CB, I only see one picture.
That's how realistic Picasso's realism paintings are. Check again.
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Old 03-10-2009, 10:41 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Plazzy's Pretensious Hitlist:

-Extreme Fitness
-Starbucks
-Abstract Artists
-Art Professors
Oh god. There's nothing worse than an artsy professor who thinks that everything has some kind of deep meaning when you know that half the time they're "teaching" out of their ass. Pretentious is the perfect word to describe my last literature teacher, thanks for helping me find the word.
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Old 03-11-2009, 12:57 AM   #27 (permalink)
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Plazzy's Pretensious Hitlist:

-Extreme Fitness
-Starbucks
-Abstract Artists
-Art Professors
Starbucks definitely. Because of the freakin Frenchie Eyetalian language.

Raw-food devotees. ( ie they won't eat anything that has been heated over a certain temp).

Logo whores. (this walks the fine line between pretentious and dumbass, depending on the logo and the amount of said logo on an outfit at one time).

I tried, tried, tried to like abstract art. But inevitably I went back to representational art that interested me and had whacked out shiz in it, like Escher, Bosch, or the O.G. of fantastique, H. R. Giger.

And I did soldier through a lot of Great Books in college, but most of my favorites would never make that list.

There have been quite a few movies in recent years that evoked a distinct air of "this film and those who brought it to you are doing you, the audience, a favor by allowing you to view it."
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Old 03-11-2009, 04:03 AM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Cartheron View Post
You shouldn't have to "look further" into art. If you need to it fails at what it is. If you look further into it because it's interesting or enjoyable at the outset then yes that is understandable and the art has suceeded.

It's like when someone tries to explain a crap joke. The explanation doesn't make it a good joke.
Completely disagree again. If your only interest in art lies within an initial reaction, then you're completely ignoring a major element of its significance as a piece. If you put any European art film by Godard, Antonioni, or Bergman on the screen in front of most people, they'd complain that the films were too "pretentious" and "didn't have narrative". I know because I was one of these people.

Contextualizing and educating can enhance your appreciation for a piece of art and your own means of evaluating art. Film is more than just an aesthetic, that's why history and theory is taught in film school.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BloodJunkie View Post
I don't find art pretentious. I find abstract art pretentious. Its not an insecurity, its that I happen to be a pretty talented artist ( drawing ) and when people try to tell me that abstract artist have talent I don't see it. It takes no talent to draw or paint the things that they do.

To me its equal to calling somebody that can dribble a basketball but not make a basket a good basketball player. Or somebody that can shadow box themselves in the mirror but gets KTFO in a fight a good fighter.

To me its all about the end product. If the end product sucks I don't care how much thought went into making it.
"Sucks" depends on your criteria for evaluating art. If you saw an abstract painting that you initially thought was "crap" and "talentless", then someone revealed to you that it was painted by a person with dementia how doesn't that change your perspective towards the art? You may not like it more, but you should certainly possess a new appreciation for it.


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Originally Posted by Cartheron View Post
Yes, but you look further into political movies because you enjoy politics or the story it had. It was interesting to you to start with.
Not necessarily, Godard makes films politically, but he does not make political films. That's why his breed of cinema was so revolutionary in the 1960s and 70s, the level of allegory transcended traditional film form and helped lead an entire movement (the French New Wave) which was deemed "pretentious" by casual film-goers, instead of celebrated for their revolutionary qualities. This is why there's such a difference in the opinion of critics and regular fans of art.


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Originally Posted by Cartheron View Post
You listen to an opera because you enjoy the sound initially, only after the initial interest will you look further into what they are meaning, the storyline, other works by the composer/singers/orchestra.
It sounds like what you're trying to apply is criteria for pop-art of Opera, which is categorized as high art. The problem with doing that, is that they both require completely different criteria for evaluating their formal qualities.


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Originally Posted by Cartheron View Post
If the opera sounds awful. I doubt it would get the same involvement. Unless you are already invested into the artists and look into why it's so different to what you have come to expect.
Once again, "awful" is based-on your own personal criteria and comprehension of conventions in which the art is evaluated. Someone who may not like a piece, may not be able to pin-point the intricacies of its composition and that can influence their appreciation of it entirely.

Art has a lot to say, but there's a lot that it omits as well, and those omissions are filled through education.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cartheron View Post
There was already something to get you interested and so it suceeded. If you need to dig to actually get that first interest it has failed. Every piece of art whether it be music, dance, painting, sculpture, literature whatever have you needs that first spark to get someone interested. The spark may differ for some people, obviously, but it needs to be there in some form.
I agree that there's an initial interest, but interest does not necessarily equate to a "like". I've watched so many films that I initially found "interesting", but I did not particularly like them. It's through contextualization that my appreciation for these pieces changed. Some of the first films I watched and hated have become some of my absolute favourites because of my advanced understanding of film theory.


I think part of my annoyance with the word pretentious (and its variations) is its frequent misuse, so I think it's important to actually define it for some people:

Quote:
pretentiousness - the quality of being pretentious (behaving or speaking in such a manner as to create a false appearance of great importance or worth)
The idea that something is creating the illusion/"falseness" of value it doesn't possess is just a narrow-minded way of assessing it. How do you know it's importance is of lesser value if you don't understand all elements of its construction (historical, theoretical, socio-cultural, AND aesthetic)? It just seems like people throw this word as a knee jerk reaction to things they may not entirely care to completely understand, that doesn't make the work "pretentious" though.
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Old 03-11-2009, 05:24 AM   #29 (permalink)
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There is good abstract art. Archetecture is abstract - t-shirts are abstract etc. Paintings can be abstract and good.
BUT! The problem is people don't want to put expensive pictures on their walls, they'd rather buy a ps3 etc. The only people willing to pay a lot for paintings (99% of the time) are people with lots of money buying them for their resale value, and for status. As such the art validation establishment dictates fine art. It's essentially just buying it poncing about until people think it's great then selling it for more.
For example Duchamp's toilet. He presented a urinal as art, as a mockery of the art critics - but it sold well so in fact he was the noob.

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Old 03-11-2009, 11:44 AM   #30 (permalink)
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What I dislike is random bigotry included but disguised. (All the male characters are stupid. All the female characters are stupid. Etc etc).
Doesn't that show up in commercials way too often?

Quote:
Originally Posted by plazzman View Post
Plazzy's Pretensious Hitlist:

-Extreme Fitness
-Starbucks
-Abstract Artists
-Art Professors
Where are the mac users in this list? Since you guys seem to hate them so much...

Quote:
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There is good abstract art. Archetecture is abstract - t-shirts are abstract etc. Paintings can be abstract and good.
BUT! The problem is people don't want to put expensive pictures on their walls, they'd rather buy a ps3 etc. The only people willing to pay a lot for paintings (99% of the time) are people with lots of money buying them for their resale value, and for status. As such the art validation establishment dictates fine art. It's essentially just buying it poncing about until people think it's great then selling it for more.
I think you are completely inaccurate in this statement...my parents have tons of art and neither makes over $60K a year. Antiques too. My in-laws have antique clocks and original prints all over their house. My father-in-law makes like $120K but his wife doesn't make much at all. Neither of those families can be considered rich.

I am the same way (except I hate antiques). I have 3 original prints in my house that my wife loved and just had to have. I did what I could to purchase them for her years and years ago for like $2K a piece. I could sell them now for like $15K each, but I would never do that. They are Patti Bannister's BTW...if you guys know her...I didn't.

But I am don't have that love of art that people have...I lack the imagination to see the meaning behind some of these things. I am literally the dumbest person in the world when it comes to evaluating art for meaning. So, I don't really care about it at all, but my wife loves it and I will hang whatever painting/drawing/artwork that she likes...unless I think it is just lame.
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