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Old 11-05-2009, 05:16 PM   #61 (permalink)
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RE: WL2FU

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Originally Posted by shatterproof View Post
...You may not like flamers, not my cup of tea either from a personality perspective...
I'm going to just go ahead and ignore the durrogatory names you've used here for a sec because i think that has been fairly dealt with and does nothing to provide a relavant discourse for the conversation. Rather, i'll address your post on it's own merits.

It's not about liking them... you don't have to like them. No one said you do. What you should do is afford them every right that you would afford your own family, yourself, and those of a like mind.

Liking them or not (or anyone else for that matter) doesn't change the fact that they deserve all and equal rights and freedoms provided to them by way of the Constitution, the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, etc. The constitution does not guarantee 'the right to the pursuit of happiness... just as long as it doesn't make anyone feel icky or annoyed', after all. As for how it pertains to marriage... well i think SWP hit the nail on the head there when she pointed out that it's really a point of phonetics. If and when civil unions get all the same rights and advantages that married couples do it will be a moot point of terminology.

as for your call for others to tollerate your intollerance... that's just rediculous on so many levels.
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:26 PM   #62 (permalink)
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OK apparently I am giving off the wrong vibe.

I don't think they deserve less rights. I never said that and I in fact said that they DO deserve equal rights. All I'm saying is that the flamboyant ones are super annoying and they are creating a horrible stereotype for their community and I'm not the only one who thinks so.

Neil Patrick Harris = Awesome and gay
that guy from americas next top model (just one example) = Super annoying fruity ridiculous clown and gay

They wanted to be treated like equals? Well if any straight guy acted the way some of the flamboyant gays on TV do, they would be just as annoying and absurd.

And I don't see what ridiculous about tolerating my opinion. My opinion is not hurting anyone.
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:41 PM   #63 (permalink)
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I have no qualms whatsoever with you not liking one personality type or another. Infact, i agree on that particular as you can see in my reiteration above (from the first page of this thread)... discrimination based on a reasonable sexual orientation on the other hand is plainly wrong. It's been classified as a hate crime for a good reason, because it is counterintuitive to the doctrine of equal rights. western/democratic courts have recognized this time and time again, it's simply a point of law.

as for your ascertation that others should tolerate your intolerance... do you really not see the circular absurdity in that thought process?

You admonish others for not tolerating your intolerance... but you're intolerant of their intolerance of your intolerance... but wait, they're intolerant of you're intolerance of their intolerance of your intolerance. And so on. It's an argument that failed during the civil rights movement and it's equally unsustainable in this decade.

Moreover, as you have pointed out... no one can dictate to others how to feel about one thing or another. However, verbalizing that intolerance is infact an exception to free speech in many cases and ultimately that is not an argument which legitimizes intolerance or the retraction/denial of the rights of others.
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Old 11-05-2009, 05:50 PM   #64 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shatterproof View Post
I have no qualms whatsoever with you not liking one personality type or another. Infact, i agree on that particular as you can see in my reiteration above... discrimination based on sexual orientation on the other hand is wrong. It's been classified as a hate crime for a good reason, because it is counterintuitive to the doctrine of equal rights. western/democratic courts have recognized this time and time again.
Yea see I could care less what their sexual orientation is. Being homosexual and being a flamboyant fairy are 2 different things. The problem is that the flamboyant fairies are giving the world the impression that ALL gays act the way they do. That's a bad thing for everyone IMO.

Quote:
as for your ascertation that others should tolerate your intolerance... do you really not see the circular absurdity in that thought process?

You admonish others for not tolerating your intolerance... but you're intolerant of their intolerance of your intolerance... but wait, they're intolerant of you're intolerance of their intolerance of your intolerance. And so on. It's an argument that failed during the civil rights movement and it's equally unsustainable in this decade.
That would make sense if I was claiming to be a tolerant person, but I'm not. I know I'm not a very tolerant person. But I see your point anyway.

Quote:
Moreover, as you have pointed out... no one can dictate to others how to feel about one thing or another. However, verbalizing that intolerance is infact an exception to free speech in many cases and ultimately that is not an argument for more intolerance or the retraction/denial of the rights of others.
Not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean that I am in the wrong for voicing my intolerance for flamboyant fairies?
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:01 PM   #65 (permalink)
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Well it looks as though the majority of voters don't want gay marriage. Isn't that how our system works? Mob rule folks. Whether you like it or not, more people decided not to allow gay marriage than those who want it legalized. Just one more triumph for democracy...
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Old 11-05-2009, 06:07 PM   #66 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WouldLuv2FightU View Post
Do you mean that I am in the wrong for voicing my intolerance for flamboyant fairies?
No, my point was two fold, that;

1. Infact intolerance is not a protected right and in actuality courts have ruled on a number of occasions that free speech is limited. Less so in the US than in other western democracies but still, even US courts have placed limitations on free speech when it encroaches upon the rights of others or (less applicable to this obviously) creates a dangerous environment for others.

2. Secondly though, that while one does have the privilege to be intolerant of others, in that it is human nature, it still does not trump the unalienable rights of the individuals whom we are intolerant of.

i do appreciate that you have made an effort to change the tone of your argument from that of earlier pages.

Quote:
Originally Posted by evilappendix View Post
Well it looks as though the majority of voters don't want gay marriage. Isn't that how our system works? Mob rule folks. Whether you like it or not, more people decided not to allow gay marriage than those who want it legalized. Just one more triumph for democracy...
You need to brush up on your system, my friend. Thankfully, it is one of checks and balances where unelected high courts get the final say lest minorities and women still not have a vote, or be viewed as property. there will never be a first for a constitutional amendment to limit the rights of others.
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:08 PM   #67 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by shatterproof View Post
People felt the same in the 60s, before blacks had real rights in the south.
Some food for thought.
the only thing about the 60's that I hate as a southerner is that the north gets a free pass...sure black people had the right to vote up there about 30 years prior or so, but their everyday life was just as horrible and they dealt with outright and subtle racism as much or more then their fellow african americans in the south.

Direct racism is one of the most surprising things when you witness it. It is like, did that guy/gal really just say that...holy shit. That is really offensive stuff. Luckily it is fading out though, but unfortunately it is being replaced by subtle racism.

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The same arguments used against gay marriage are the same arguments used back in the day against interracial marriage.

Here's my opinion. The need to remove the word marriage altogether. Make everything a civil union, and if you want to be "married", talk to a priest of some sort. Basically, take this argument out of the government. Nothing would change, except all the people that, for some reason, have a problem with Gays using the term "marriage", would be placated. It is all semantics, and therefore stupid IMO.

How I really feel, is that this is a simple case of ignorance. People are bigoted due to their ignorance and are told to defend "marriage" tooth and nail. It doesn't matter if two gay guys get married. It doesn't affect anyone besides the two getting married. People need to live their own lives to the best of their abilities and stop trying to tell everyone else how to live theirs. Stop the bigotry and hate. It is unnecessary and will shorten your lifespan.

/rant
The term of marriage was around before religion (i.e. christianity) claimed it as their own...much like morals

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The longer I'm married - the more they piss me off


Someone posted that marriage is bad. To my mind it's the best thing for the child to grow up with two available parents - who live together, get along. And then the rest of the family etc. Marriage is the best way to get that right?
First, I am a guy that gets a fake tan...only because it helps control my back and shoulders from breaking out though in the winter months when I can't go in the sun.

Second, I think MC's point that marriage is bad is being misunderstood by you. I think he only meant it as a personal choice and that it wasn't bad as much as he just disagreed with it. I am not sure where he stands on monogamy, but marriage is not the only way to achieve it.

Being in a relationship is already complicated enough. Why bring the government into it and complicate it more? I don't have a problem with marriage as I am happily married, but I understand people that do.
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:09 PM   #68 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by shatterproof View Post

You need to brush up on your system, my friend. Thankfully, it is one of checks and balances where unelected high courts get the final say lest minorities and women still not have a vote, or be viewed as property. there will never be a first for a constitutional amendment to limit the rights of others.


Apparently my sarcasm has fallen on deaf ears. Or should I say blind eyes? Thanks for the political lesson though...I'm well aware of the "checks and balances" that have been put into place. Though I'm not 100% on what you're inferring with your last sentence. The 21st amendment certainly limits the rights of all adults between the ages of 18-20. They can be drafted, vote, smoke, be in a porno and serve alcohol; they just can't imbibe it until they're more grown up...

But I digress. Gay marriage, or at the very least civil unions, is an inevitability. Unless the zombies come first or the Aztecs on planet Nibiru get us in 2012. Then you're not gonna care whether the person next to you likes the dong or the vag. Just whether or not they're a good shot.
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:14 PM   #69 (permalink)
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Apparently my sarcasm has fallen on deaf ears. Or should I say blind eyes? Thanks for the political lesson though...I'm well aware of the "checks and balances" that have been put into place. Though I'm not 100% on what you're inferring with your last sentence. The 21st amendment certainly limits the rights of all adults between the ages of 18-20. They can be drafted, vote, smoke, be in a porno and serve alcohol; they just can't imbibe it until they're more grown up...

But I digress. Gay marriage, or at the very least civil unions, is an inevitability. Unless the zombies come first or the Aztecs on planet Nibiru get us in 2012. Then you're not gonna care whether the person next to you likes the dong or the vag. Just whether or not they're a good shot.
The age of legally drinking like most other substance laws is in the hands of the state. Don't blame the constitution of the US.

I remember the days of drive through liquor stores in Slidell at the age of 18 (16 actually but a fake ID that said I was 18) to stock up on for the weekend. Gallon daiquiris, handles of Vodka brand vodka, and all the horrible whiskey a boy could dream of.
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Old 11-05-2009, 07:15 PM   #70 (permalink)
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Quote:
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Apparently my sarcasm has fallen on deaf ears.
obviously, then.

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Why bring the government into it and complicate it more
true that. i consider myself 'married' as do many of my friends whom, like me, do not involve the government or any church in that decision. others do, to each their own.
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