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Old 07-28-2012, 04:13 AM   #22321 (permalink)
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60,000 is still way too high.. Yeah you are right that a psychopath is going to kill anyway, but it doesn't take a psychopath to pull a trigger.

PGI, you are in here now, do you think civilians should be able to have guns? Do you ever have difficulty in your workplace because of idiots with guns?
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:18 AM   #22322 (permalink)
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60,000 is still way too high.. Yeah you are right that a psychopath is going to kill anyway, but it doesn't take a psychopath to pull a trigger.
It does take a very disturbed person to pull a trigger without due regard for the life of another.

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PGI, you are in here now, do you think civilians should be able to have guns? Do you ever have difficulty in your workplace because of idiots with guns?


Most definitely. Just about every mass murder throughout history would have been very different if there was an armed civilian there.

I believe it is a very extinguishable right though. Background checks should be done, convicted felons should not be allowed to carry them, nor should people with restraining orders placed against them. I think that people should have to pass a training class as well. Proficiency and safety with the weapon is a must if they want to carry concealed.

EDIT: 99% of the problems I've run into at work of idiots with guns are criminals who obtained the guns illegally. The vast majority are gang members or drug dealers. I have arrested a sovereign citizen (look it up if unfamiliar) with a gun concealed on his person. He was a pain in the ass. That was about it.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:19 AM   #22323 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MRBRESK View Post
60,000 is still way too high.. Yeah you are right that a psychopath is going to kill anyway, but it doesn't take a psychopath to pull a trigger.

PGI, you are in here now, do you think civilians should be able to have guns? Do you ever have difficulty in your workplace because of idiots with guns?
Those 60,000 would have gotten hurt or killed anyways by the ones wanting to do so. The gun was the tool, not the cause.

The percentage alone shows that guns aren't the problem, only .02% of the people who own guns actually use them to harm anybody, the problem is the crazy .02% of people.

As for civilians owning guns, as shown above, it's perfectly fine, we are not hurting anyone with guns more than we'd hurt anyone with any other tool, it just so happens guns are the easiest tool to get, if you got rid of them crazies and nut jobs would go after the next easiest tool. If anything, civilians can protect themselves against criminals with guns, how many people do you think were not robbed/attacked in their home based on a criminals assumption of "I wonder if he has a gun, maybe we shouldn't break in".
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:43 AM   #22324 (permalink)
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Okay fair enough. I definitely agree with PGI when he says that there should be extensive background checks done, you can't just hand a firearm to anybody.

At the end of the day the people of the USA want guns so that's how it's always going to be. I'm glad that guns aren't legal in Australia though, I never really feel threatened here.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:49 AM   #22325 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MRBRESK View Post
Okay fair enough. I definitely agree with PGI when he says that there should be extensive background checks done, you can't just hand a firearm to anybody.

At the end of the day the people of the USA want guns so that's how it's always going to be. I'm glad that guns aren't legal in Australia though, I never really feel threatened here.
That's pretty much the bottom line, I mean the actual statistics and stuff show that the current system is actually very good considering the assault/gun owner ratio (I agree on background checks), but the bottom line is - it's an American right to own a gun, and nothing would ever pass, ever, to stop the masses from owning them, which is really the answer to your "why are guns legal there still?" question.

Just finished my leftover Chinese food, so good.
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Old 07-28-2012, 04:53 AM   #22326 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by MRBRESK View Post
Okay fair enough. I definitely agree with PGI when he says that there should be extensive background checks done, you can't just hand a firearm to anybody.

At the end of the day the people of the USA want guns so that's how it's always going to be. I'm glad that guns aren't legal in Australia though, I never really feel threatened here.
I appreciate the civil, respectful conversation. Those are very hard to find when it comes to topics like this.

I guess it's just a different culture. I grew up shooting guns. This was me as a kid. Yes, that's a one piece ninja turtles jump suit:



Working my job has really opened up my eyes. I see things on the news like the Colorado shooting and I remind myself that's why I take my gun everywhere. My girlfriend thinks I'm paranoid. Maybe so. But when that day comes and I can save myself, my family, my friends, or even a stranger's life I'm going to be ready.

This is a great article and metaphor I pretty much live my life by:

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Old 07-28-2012, 05:25 AM   #22327 (permalink)
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I agreed with all you said so far, except this metaphor.

Law enforcement, military, etc, do not have more courage, discipline, intelligence, or anything else. I hope you realize people don't avoid being one of these things out of lack of courage, intelligence, discipline, loyalty, or any of that, but because their interests lie elsewhere. Become a doctor, a lawyer, a scientist, or any number of professions, then you tell me how much courage, discipline, loyalty and intelligence any law enforcement/military personnel has in comparison.

Be proud of who you are and your job (everybody should be, from businessmen to doctors, to police officers to lawyers, to marine biologists and so on), but to claim you have specific traits (discipline, intelligence, courage, etc, stated in that quote) based on your chosen job interest, is ridiculous, your job means as much as a computer science technician or someone who studies mammals for a living, which is just another job, of which every has an important role to play in keeping our society going as it is.

Keep in mind, I know you didn't "claim" to have these things over others, however you said you live your life on that metaphor, which did state it, and I just want to make that part clear and that it is false and quite silly to claim, if you were (going by the quote, I could be way off at 1:30 AM).
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Old 07-28-2012, 05:41 AM   #22328 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M.C View Post
I agreed with all you said so far, except this metaphor.

Law enforcement, military, etc, do not have more courage, discipline, intelligence, or anything else. I hope you realize people don't avoid being one of these things out of lack of courage, intelligence, discipline, loyalty, or any of that, but because their interests lie elsewhere. Become a doctor, a lawyer, a scientist, or any number of professions, then you tell me how much courage, discipline, loyalty and intelligence any law enforcement/military personnel has in comparison.
Perhaps they don't have any more courage / discipline / loyalt ect than the average person. But they do have the drive and ambition to dedicate their lives and profession to fighting the bad guys. That is what makes the difference imo. Not that there's anything wrong with becoming a doctor, lawyer, or scientist. Hell, in my opinion thats what the smart people do. Way smarter than me. I believe there are certain people born and bread to do battle. Modern day warriors. These people often end up in military or law enforcement. They couldn't life a full life without that battle. I don't think I could. I don't think less of someone who doesn't want that battle. That's perfectly normal.

Quote:
Be proud of who you are and your job (everybody should be, from businessmen to doctors, to police officers to lawyers, to marine biologists and so on), but to claim you have specific traits (discipline, intelligence, courage, etc, stated in that quote) based on your chosen job interest, is ridiculous, your job means as much as a computer science technician or someone who studies mammals for a living, which is just another job, of which every has an important role to play in keeping our society going as it is.

Keep in mind, I know you didn't "claim" to have these things over others, however you said you live your life on that metaphor, which did state it, and I just want to make that part clear and that it is false and quite silly to claim, if you were (going by the quote, I could be way off at 1:30 AM).
I believe that the vast majority of society are very hidden from the real world. Bad people don't scare me. Bad people excite me for the battle which I train for. Regular citizens rarely see evil in it's true form, and when they finally do they usually want nothing to do with it. Sheepdogs (according to the metaphor) have the same capacity for violence as the wolves, except the sheep dog has a deep love for their fellow citizens. They are able to use that capacity for violence to protect those who can't protect themselves. Just as scientist and doctors are rare and specialize in what they do, so does a sheep dog.

For the record I am not trying to make myself sound special or better than anyone else in any way. This is my profession. This is how I live my life. Everyone is different and that's okay.
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Old 07-28-2012, 06:07 AM   #22329 (permalink)
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Perhaps they don't have any more courage / discipline / loyalt ect than the average person. But they do have the drive and ambition to dedicate their lives and profession to fighting the bad guys. That is what makes the difference imo. Not that there's anything wrong with becoming a doctor, lawyer, or scientist. Hell, in my opinion thats what the smart people do. Way smarter than me. I believe there are certain people born and bread to do battle. Modern day warriors. These people often end up in military or law enforcement. They couldn't life a full life without that battle. I don't think I could. I don't think less of someone who doesn't want that battle. That's perfectly normal.



I believe that the vast majority of society are very hidden from the real world. Bad people don't scare me. Bad people excite me for the battle which I train for. Regular citizens rarely see evil in it's true form, and when they finally do they usually want nothing to do with it. Sheepdogs (according to the metaphor) have the same capacity for violence as the wolves, except the sheep dog has a deep love for their fellow citizens. They are able to use that capacity for violence to protect those who can't protect themselves. Just as scientist and doctors are rare and specialize in what they do, so does a sheep dog.

For the record I am not trying to make myself sound special or better than anyone else in any way. This is my profession. This is how I live my life. Everyone is different and that's okay.
Saying that you like to get into physical confrontations is perfectly understandable, but that has nothing to do with courage/loyalty/intelligence/discipline, or any other trait other than being excited for physical confrontation. Keep in mind, the "average" person has varying quantities of all these traits, but if you are say a cop, you do not automatically have them, it's just a job and you are just a human, with the same varying quantities.

I'm not trying to downgrade your job or anything, having any actual "career" is respectable and lucky, considering the job market and availability of anything you could call a "career", plus to reach anything in life takes time and effort, so don't take it the wrong way. I just find that quote to be far too "high and mighty" considering the actualities of the job compared to other jobs (in that they are on the same playing field), although you addressed that "high and mighty" thing at the end of your post, to which I say -
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Old 07-28-2012, 06:43 AM   #22330 (permalink)
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Saying that you like to get into physical confrontations is perfectly understandable, but that has nothing to do with courage/loyalty/intelligence/discipline, or any other trait other than being excited for physical confrontation. Keep in mind, the "average" person has varying quantities of all these traits, but if you are say a cop, you do not automatically have them, it's just a job and you are just a human, with the same varying quantities.
It's not just a matter of "liking" to get into physical confrontations. It's training your mind and your body to the point where you yearn for that righteous battle. We are human and members of society. However we also protect society. That is a privilege that few are capable of or want to do. I can easily say that not all police officers have this mindset. Although I believe they should. This is similar to the way a scientist yearns for knowledge in their field of study. It's just a matter of personal preference in what you choose to dedicate your life to.

Quote:
I'm not trying to downgrade your job or anything, having any actual "career" is respectable and lucky, considering the job market and availability of anything you could call a "career", plus to reach anything in life takes time and effort, so don't take it the wrong way. I just find that quote to be far too "high and mighty" considering the actualities of the job compared to other jobs (in that they are on the same playing field), although you addressed that "high and mighty" thing at the end of your post, to which I say -
I'm incredibly lucky. I know this. Things are not easy right now and I have a good job doing what I love.

The high and mighty thing happens to be a side effect of the job. Criminals use intimidation... even against us. We have to have the mindset that we're the baddest mother ****ers out there. That way when we deal with the bad guys they know we won't be walked over like (most) of the sheep. If you display weakness to them, they will eat you alive. Every rookie in this job experiences it. That mindset is also difficult to just "switch" off when dealing with the asshole and then changing to the law abiding citizen. This is how a lot of police officers get bad reputations.

I believe that I'm very good at switching it off. I have even had several citizens call to my supervisor to compliment me on my professionalism. Other officer struggle with this. I'm sure you've all had bad experiences... as have I.

I really don't consider myself better than any other average person except when it comes to my area of expertise. I believe I have rare skills and a mindset that most other people don't. But so do other people which relates to their areas of expertise.

I appreciate the civil discussion. I always love hearing rational peoples point of views on law enforcement (even if they have an unfavorable one). I can't count how many people just like to say "**** the police" and make brainless insults like calling us "pigs". I usually don't even waste my time with that.

I'm definitely ranting now.
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