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Old 07-09-2008, 03:16 PM   #21 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
The President was free to leave at any time if he didn't like what Americans had to say. He could have also listened and given an honest response to whatever the citizens he serves had to say. He chose option C, which is have a wall of mindless authority eliminate the glitch in the system.
But the thing is, they have a vehicle of stating their opinion and being rude at a speech isn't the way. Just as if you go to a college that a professor is giving a speech and do the same thing, you're going to escorted out.




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And that's the issue. According to your reasoning (the individual's right to speak is trumped by the group's right to listen), it seems that smoking in public should be banned because it puts those around the smoker at a higher risk of cancer.

Oh, and shouldn't we be blaming Canada?

And as I stated earlier, PLACES THAT HAVE SMOKING SECTIONS. I'm not saying that there should be the right to smoke in a grocery store or anything.

And I'm sure that this is going to get a whole argument started by it's self, but I have never seen any proof the second hand smoke is any more dangerous then the air we breath without a cigarette near by.
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:17 PM   #22 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Green Scape View Post
I don't know if the three tasings were separate or the officers were reacting how they were trained when given an order.

On the same token, I wouldn't want someone who becomes delusional holding something that's not a plastic spork especially if they have enough freedom to walk into my mother's room to slash elves and fairies. If tasing, swinging a crowbar, putting bag over the man's head is what it takes to prevent that, so be it.

.... what Canadian protocol for that situation doesn't hit the media anyways? "Police use Baton to break 82 yr old man's hand"--- "Old man wrestled in cramped room cracks skull on hospital equipment"



He didn't even know why he wouldn't let go of the knife during this. This should hold a lot of credibility though which makes me wonder what all the other qualified witnesses exluding cops and the suspect had to say. They could've just not have been exciting enough to make this article's cut.

There's too many unfilled gaps to be angry at the police imo. It could all come down poor training and one nervous cop holding a taser, but nothing more intentional than trying to protect patients/staff and end a situation quick and easy. Judging by how the police were quoted they only had pepper spray or tasing on their minds for this type of situation and you'd think they'd have the authority to use their common sense but it seems like these were the type of cops that needed to be trained for 82 yr old men back at the academy along with the common criminal. Other than that, I think they were justified by how they were trained to handle someone who's armed. I just can't see someone training one of their men to attempt wrestling and armed person first, and that's exactly what they didn't do.
All valid points, but if this were to happen to civilians and one claimed self defense being the reason for the tasing, agood attorney could still win the case for the victim of the tase. However, when it is authorities they get a special permission to use excessive force because they are authorities. Force is force and I find it hard to believe that there were no other options for them to take other then tasing the guy3 times when one was clearly enough (as if they needed to do that one).

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Originally Posted by Chrisl972 View Post
And I'm sure that this is going to get a whole argument started by it's self, but I have never seen any proof the second hand smoke is any more dangerous then the air we breath without a cigarette near by.
Who is going to subject themselves to that research? It is much easier to find someone that has been smoking. Also, most people subjected to long periods of second-hand smoke on multiple occassions throughout their lives generally become smokers.
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:30 PM   #23 (permalink)
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Jas, I'll try to find the article on the Swat team, but it was a few years ago.

From what I remember is that the Swat team had a warrant to go and arrest the guy who lived in the house, which happened to be his grandma's house, and his grandma was sitting inside waiting for the police to come in.

As to the pepper spray Tiger... you can't spray that stuff in a hospital. If anyone has any experience with pepper spray, it shouldn't require too much thinking to realize how many problems would arise with other patients throughout the hospital, especially if it got into the ventilation.

The guy was weilding a weapon and wouldn't drop it. Who knows what he would do with it and if he would hurt someone. As said before, he was delusional and you can't guess what he will do with that knife. Oh my bad, a "Pocket" knife. Then again, a plastic fork or Spork is more dangerous than this...


EDIT: Jas, the video of the speech of President Bush....that is the job of the secret service. You can't have people coming up to the President of the United States like that. They have no idea who she is, or what she will do. Maybe she will just speak and yell like she was doing, but the Secret Service's job is to protect the President. The woman charging the stage where Bush is at, they have no idea what she is going to do. They have the right to free speech, but you can't start yelling at the President while running at him.
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:46 PM   #24 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by milkkid291 View Post
Jas, I'll try to find the article on the Swat team, but it was a few years ago.

From what I remember is that the Swat team had a warrant to go and arrest the guy who lived in the house, which happened to be his grandma's house, and his grandma was sitting inside waiting for the police to come in.

As to the pepper spray Tiger... you can't spray that stuff in a hospital. If anyone has any experience with pepper spray, it shouldn't require too much thinking to realize how many problems would arise with other patients throughout the hospital, especially if it got into the ventilation.

The guy was weilding a weapon and wouldn't drop it. Who knows what he would do with it and if he would hurt someone. As said before, he was delusional and you can't guess what he will do with that knife. Oh my bad, a "Pocket" knife. Then again, a plastic fork or Spork is more dangerous than this...


EDIT: Jas, the video of the speech of President Bush....that is the job of the secret service. You can't have people coming up to the President of the United States like that. They have no idea who she is, or what she will do. Maybe she will just speak and yell like she was doing, but the Secret Service's job is to protect the President. The woman charging the stage where Bush is at, they have no idea what she is going to do. They have the right to free speech, but you can't start yelling at the President while running at him.
I believe Jas made the reference about the fork, but they could have difused the situation by locking the guy in the room. Since the nurses had time to leave and call the Mounted Police. The knives pictured above are all fine and dandy but, I seriously doubt the 82 year old guy had one of those. It was probably more along the lines of this:


I stand behind my statements of this being a blatant misuse of a taser and over the line of appropriate force. The bigger the knife the easier it would be to knock out of a person's hand (especially that of an 82 year old's)
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:48 PM   #25 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by milkkid291 View Post
The guy was weilding a weapon and wouldn't drop it. Who knows what he would do with it and if he would hurt someone. As said before, he was delusional and you can't guess what he will do with that knife.
The article says he was lying in his hospital bed and makes no mention of menacing behavior. And again, the guy was recovering from major heart surgery. A slight jog or the sight of an attractive nurse would likely have been enough to stop him cold. The old school beatdown was clearly not the only course of action available; I've suggested a few that effectively mitigate risk for all those involved. Maybe I should go into law enforcement?


Quote:
Oh my bad, a "Pocket" knife. Then again, a plastic fork or Spork is more dangerous than this...
Who said anything about plastic? Besides, maybe forks aren't as innocuous as I thought:
Quote:
After stabbing a man with a meat fork during a robbery, Lionel Edwards, 28, of Kennett, is being held on a $75,000 cash bond. According to Assistant Police Chief Steve Williams, on Sunday, June 29, 2008, Alexander Gordon, also of Kennett, filed a complaint against Edwards citing that on Sunday, June 23, Edwards attacked and stabbed him with a meat fork while he was at his residence on North Baldwin Street in Kennett. Gordon also stated Edwards robbed him of $650 in cash during the altercation.
Edwards was located by Kennett police officers on Monday, June 30, and incarcerated in the Dunklin County Justice Center.
Edwards is being charged with first-degree assault, first-degree robbery (both of which are Class A felonies), and armed criminal action.
http://www.topix.com/city/kennett-mo...d-with-assault

Quote:
EDIT: Jas, the video of the speech of President Bush....that is the job of the secret service. You can't have people coming up to the President of the United States like that. They have no idea who she is, or what she will do. Maybe she will just speak and yell like she was doing, but the Secret Service's job is to protect the President. The woman charging the stage where Bush is at, they have no idea what she is going to do. They have the right to free speech, but you can't start yelling at the President while running at him.
Only one of the speakers advanced on the President, and to be fair, none of them were treated as if they were a physical threat to him (at least not in front of the cameras ).
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Old 07-09-2008, 03:56 PM   #26 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by ZZtigerZZ81 View Post
I believe Jas made the reference about the fork, but they could have difused the situation by locking the guy in the room.
So what happens when the guy starts stabbing himself or destroying equipment in the room costing thousands of dollars. What if he was sharing a room with a patient or if it was the recovery room where there are dozens of patients?


Quote:
Originally Posted by ZZtigerZZ81 View Post
The knives pictured above are all fine and dandy but, I seriously doubt the 82 year old guy had one of those. It was probably more along the lines of this:
What's the difference, they are knives. I was just getting a picture out of pocket knives because someone referenced that it was a pocket knife as if they aren't dangerous. There are thousands of types of pocket knives, but they are dangerous weapons.

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Originally Posted by ZZtigerZZ81 View Post
I stand behind my statements of this being a blatant misuse of a taser and over the line of appropriate force. The bigger the knife the easier it would be to knock out of a person's hand (especially that of an 82 year old's)
The bigger the knife, the easier it is to stab or slice someone. By physically trying to take a knife from someone, the more of a change you are taking of getting stabbed or sliced. The officers stayed out of the range of the weapon and had the man drop the weapon by tasing him. No one was hurt, besides an old man being tased.
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:08 PM   #27 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by milkkid291 View Post
So what happens when the guy starts stabbing himself or destroying equipment in the room costing thousands of dollars. What if he was sharing a room with a patient or if it was the recovery room where there are dozens of patients?
What if he had a bazooka under his pillow?

Quote:
What's the difference, they are knives. I was just getting a picture out of pocket knives because someone referenced that it was a pocket knife as if they aren't dangerous. There are thousands of types of pocket knives, but they are dangerous weapons.
The point was that a fork can be very dangerous, too, but they distribute those with meals. The issue is about intent, and apparently, this guy lacked it. He simply had a pocket knife in his possession. He wasn't threatening anyone and was in no condition to carry out any if he decided to make them:
Quote:
Lasser has had heart surgery and needs to carry an apparatus to supply oxygen at all times. He was in the Royal Inland Hospital Saturday due to pneumonia
Quote:
The bigger the knife, the easier it is to stab or slice someone. By physically trying to take a knife from someone, the more of a change you are taking of getting stabbed or sliced. The officers stayed out of the range of the weapon and had the man drop the weapon by tasing him.
No one was hurt, besides an old man being tased.
And before they showed up no one was hurt.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/british-col...man-taser.html
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:08 PM   #28 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
The article says he was lying in his hospital bed and makes no mention of menacing behavior. And again, the guy was recovering from major heart surgery. A slight jog or the sight of an attractive nurse would likely have been enough to stop him cold. The old school beatdown was clearly not the only course of action available; I've suggested a few that effectively mitigate risk for all those involved. Maybe I should go into law enforcement?


Who said anything about plastic? Besides, maybe forks aren't as innocuous as I thought: http://www.topix.com/city/kennett-mo...d-with-assault
You are right, you never said anything about a plastic fork, but you did say...

Quote:
before removing the item from his hand that is about as dangerous as the fork they gave him to eat lunch with .
and by saying this, you should've realized that the utensils that hospitals give you to eat, are plastic.

Oh, do you know what a meat fork is? Might be a little better insight on what kind of fork was used in the story you provided.



Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
Only one of the speakers advanced on the President, and to be fair, none of them were treated as if they were a physical threat to him (at least not in front of the cameras ).
The secret Service ran into her and grabbed her and pulled her away. It's no like he's going to pull out his gun and shoot her in the head.

And yes, we don't see how they are treated in front of the cameras besides being pulled away, but you then again, this video only showed a minute of 3 people yelling stuff during his speech. I don't think we are going to see much of what happened due to the fact of it cutting out and showing very brief footage of 3 people.

I also don't think the police are in a nation where police hang you from a ceiling and beat your feet and legs with a baseball bat. So it may be safe to assume that these people weren't beat or physically abused besides being pulled/dragged away and possibly handcuffed.
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:09 PM   #29 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Hett View Post
I love the use of a taser...and I just graduated from UF and was there when that kid got tasered last year.
DON'T TASE ME BRO! DON'T TASE ME!

That was my contribution to the thread.
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Old 07-09-2008, 04:13 PM   #30 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
What if he had a bazooka under his pillow?
That would be pretty bad, but seeing the "What if's" that I mentioned above are more realistic since this did take place in a hospital, I wouldn't count on a bazooka being under his pillow. Atleast let's hope so.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
The point was that a fork can be very dangerous, too, but they distribute those with meals. The issue is about intent, and apparently, this guy lacked it. He simply had a pocket knife in his possession. He wasn't threatening anyone and was in no condition to carry out any if he decided to make them:
A fork can be dangerous, as many other items, but a pocket knife is more dangerous than a plastic spork.

He might've not been able to go on a running spree stabbing people, but I doubt the nurses would feal too comfortable taking care of a man who was weilding a pocket knife. He can always just slice or jab at them.


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Originally Posted by jasvll View Post
And before they showed up no one was hurt.
That's wonderful, but what if they never showed up. Would the nurses be injured? Would he inflict wounds to himself?
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