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Old 04-24-2009, 07:14 PM   #121 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by pt447 View Post
One of my major criticism of religion comes from the very fact that there are so many "types" of Christians. They can't all be correct? Who is the most right? Who got Jesus's message the most accurate? And as for the Bible, are you saying that Catholics don't follow--or believe to follow--the Bible strictly? Other than the Pope's infallible world, Catholics tend to read the bible like fiends! In fact, Christians are more likely to be less gung ho about the bible and are more apt to interpret their faith loosely and more according to modern values. Now, I'm not talking about Evangelicals, Quiverfulls, and all the other fundamentalist Bible thumpers, and even many "laid back" Christians quote scripture, but when it comes to "you're going to burn in hell because the bible says so" Catholics rank pretty high up there. But, you are correct in that the vast majority of scripture quoters and street corner preachers are "Christians" and not "Catholics"... which is another hilarious distinction. Basically the only difference between Christianity and Catholicism is that Catholics worship the pope. Just as dumb as reform Jews and conservative Jews keeping kosher or not... Who's more "Jewish" and who's more "Christ-like"?

Apologists of religion love to cite the variety of spiritual interpretation, but that just goes to show that religion itself is completely flawed. Either God wants it this way, or he doesn't. You can't be all right!!!

What about the Inca's? Maybe they were right and God loved blood sacrifices! Maybe the lack of blood sacrifices has lead God to be angry for several hundred years and lead to our decadence and moral decay? How come nobody takes that seriously? What if the whirling dervishes have it right and Buddhists are just wasting their time?

Religion has to be black and white or it's just exposing it's own impossibility!

And by the way, those people you love who do things because it's the right thing to do... they're called Humanists. You don't need any single iota of religion or spirituality to be a good person. That comes from society and ethical living. If those are the qualities you respect in others and yourself, why cling to any shred of ideology and dogma?
Not true. Sometimes they are humanists, other times not. Do you know what that word means? Im not being condenceing im a little drunk, and that word means a very specific thing. Good people come in all forms, religions, cultures and ways of life. Just because someone is a christian does not mean they are a bad person. But I agree relgion absolutely does not determine morality, in fact i read a study in years gone by documenting that atheists/agnostics are moderately better people than those who are religious? And thats in america where the religious people only kill a few people every year. We tend to be: less violent, less likely to **** or commit sexual crimes, less likely yo divorce and far less likely to commit a felony. Why don't I believe in god? No reason or benefit to.
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Old 04-24-2009, 07:23 PM   #122 (permalink)
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Not true. Sometimes they are humanists, other times not. Do you know what that word means? Im not being condenceing im a little drunk, and that word means a very specific thing. Good people come in all forms, religions, cultures and ways of life. Just because someone is a christian does not mean they are a bad person. But I agree relgion absolutely does not determine morality, in fact i read a study in years gone by documenting that atheists/agnostics are moderately better people than those who are religious? And thats in america where the religious people only kill a few people every year. We tend to be: less violent, less likely to **** or commit sexual crimes, less likely yo divorce and far less likely to commit a felony. Why don't I believe in god? No reason or benefit to.
well, for being drunk you make more coherent psots than you use to in that state ^^ (also pretty much agree)
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Old 04-24-2009, 07:29 PM   #123 (permalink)
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well, for being drunk you make more coherent psots than you use to in that state ^^ (also pretty much agree)
4 beers down and im working on a glass of wine semi-drunk

just riding the buzz

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Old 04-24-2009, 07:55 PM   #124 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by xeberus View Post
Not true. Sometimes they are humanists, other times not. Do you know what that word means? Im not being condenceing im a little drunk, and that word means a very specific thing. Good people come in all forms, religions, cultures and ways of life. Just because someone is a christian does not mean they are a bad person. But I agree relgion absolutely does not determine morality, in fact i read a study in years gone by documenting that atheists/agnostics are moderately better people than those who are religious? And thats in america where the religious people only kill a few people every year. We tend to be: less violent, less likely to **** or commit sexual crimes, less likely yo divorce and far less likely to commit a felony. Why don't I believe in god? No reason or benefit to.
You missed my point. Maybe due to your inebriation, but my point was that when you act morally, ethically, and according to the "golden rule"--which was around many thousands of years ago--you are acting as a humanist. My point is that unless you claim your morals come directly from the teachings of Jesus, you're a humanist. And even if you do claim that, it's bunk because many many religious leaders and other people throughout history have taught the same things Jesus supposedly taught, so not a single good moral anyone can derive from the teachings of Christ are inherently unique to Christianity. Therefore the argument that Christianity produces moral actors is moot because you cannot argue that Christianity alone is the source of good action.

Trust me, being a humanist, I'm keenly aware of what the world means:

The Affirmations of Humanism:
A Statement of Principles

* We are committed to the application of reason and science to the understanding of the universe and to the solving of human problems.
* We deplore efforts to denigrate human intelligence, to seek to explain the world in supernatural terms, and to look outside nature for salvation.
* We believe that scientific discovery and technology can contribute to the betterment of human life.
* We believe in an open and pluralistic society and that democracy is the best guarantee of protecting human rights from authoritarian elites and repressive majorities.
* We are committed to the principle of the separation of church and state.
* We cultivate the arts of negotiation and compromise as a means of resolving differences and achieving mutual understanding.
* We are concerned with securing justice and fairness in society and with eliminating discrimination and intolerance.
* We believe in supporting the disadvantaged and the handicapped so that they will be able to help themselves.
* We attempt to transcend divisive parochial loyalties based on race, religion, gender, nationality, creed, class, sexual orientation, or ethnicity, and strive to work together for the common good of humanity.
* We want to protect and enhance the earth, to preserve it for future generations, and to avoid inflicting needless suffering on other species.
* We believe in enjoying life here and now and in developing our creative talents to their fullest.
* We believe in the cultivation of moral excellence.
* We respect the right to privacy. Mature adults should be allowed to fulfill their aspirations, to express their sexual preferences, to exercise reproductive freedom, to have access to comprehensive and informed health-care, and to die with dignity.
* We believe in the common moral decencies: altruism, integrity, honesty, truthfulness, responsibility. Humanist ethics is amenable to critical, rational guidance. There are normative standards that we discover together. Moral principles are tested by their consequences.
* We are deeply concerned with the moral education of our children. We want to nourish reason and compassion.
* We are engaged by the arts no less than by the sciences.
* We are citizens of the universe and are excited by discoveries still to be made in the cosmos.
* We are skeptical of untested claims to knowledge, and we are open to novel ideas and seek new departures in our thinking.
* We affirm humanism as a realistic alternative to theologies of despair and ideologies of violence and as a source of rich personal significance and genuine satisfaction in the service to others.
* We believe in optimism rather than pessimism, hope rather than despair, learning in the place of dogma, truth instead of ignorance, joy rather than guilt or sin, tolerance in the place of fear, love instead of hatred, compassion over selfishness, beauty instead of ugliness, and reason rather than blind faith or irrationality.
* We believe in the fullest realization of the best and noblest that we are capable of as human beings.

http://www.secularhumanism.org/index.php

http://blog.thehumanist.com/
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Old 04-24-2009, 08:01 PM   #125 (permalink)
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I feel slightly confused its like we're arguing, but we're like agreeing on the same thing.

You know what, rain check, tomorrow when I wake up all hungover and hopefully sexed out from the night before (tnouigt) I will log on here and I will agree your ass into the wall. You will be so agreed with, you'll feel slightly disheartened at the fact that our beliefs are so similar we have almost no basis to argue except over the details. yea!
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Old 04-24-2009, 08:04 PM   #126 (permalink)
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I hope so, I haven't had a good agreement sore in a while. Nothing like a nice festering agreement. And that tends to happen a lot when these religion threads spring up; people arguing over their agreement. Still, I tend to take all posts as fodder for argument and debate. So most of the time I'm just working off of what is said, even if we're agreeing, as just a source of ranting and raving!

To that end, have another drink, put on two jimmies, and talk to you tomorrow!

*EDIT* By the way, I just saw the little quip in your sig about science, religion, and flying... I'm fairly certain we're on the same page!
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Last edited by pt447 : 04-24-2009 at 11:21 PM.
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Old 04-24-2009, 09:28 PM   #127 (permalink)
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This exchange was all kinds of awesome.
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Old 04-24-2009, 11:31 PM   #128 (permalink)
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I want to be agreement raped too damnit. just because I ducked out for awhile doesn't mean we have to chat each other up does it xeb? We can play the real stranger hook up game or you could just dutch rudder agreement me...either way we both win.
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Old 04-24-2009, 11:48 PM   #129 (permalink)
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Let's all get a good topic to argue, all agree, and yell at each other. Whomever get's a hemorage first, wins!!!
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Old 04-24-2009, 11:51 PM   #130 (permalink)
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Okay I freaking love alcohol...i love it a whole buch...I often dream about drinking the perfect beer and wine in the same night.
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