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Old 04-05-2010, 07:05 PM   #1 (permalink)
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Collateral Murder **NSFW, Graphic**

http://www.collateralmurder.com/

Okay, if you're in weak constitution DO NOT watch this video. I'm not posting it for shock value, I'm posting it because I'm thoroughly disgusted that this kind of shit happened due to some soldier having too much of an itchy trigger finger to properly scout who he's about to rain brutal death on.

This is your last warning, the video is graphic and highly disturbing due to the attitude of the pilots, the images and just the nature of it.



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5th April 2010 10:44 EST WikiLeaks has released a classified US military video depicting the indiscriminate slaying of over a dozen people in the Iraqi suburb of New Baghdad -- including two Reuters news staff.

Reuters has been trying to obtain the video through the Freedom of Information Act, without success since the time of the attack. The video, shot from an Apache helicopter gun-site, clearly shows the unprovoked slaying of a wounded Reuters employee and his rescuers. Two young children involved in the rescue were also seriously wounded.


The military did not reveal how the Reuters staff were killed, and stated that they did not know how the children were injured.

After demands by Reuters, the incident was investigated and the U.S. military concluded that the actions of the soldiers were in accordance with the law of armed conflict and its own "Rules of Engagement".

Consequently, WikiLeaks has released the classified Rules of Engagement for 2006, 2007 and 2008, revealing these rules before, during, and after the killings.

WikiLeaks has released both the original 38 minutes video and a shorter version with an initial analysis. Subtitles have been added to both versions from the radio transmissions.

WikiLeaks obtained this video as well as supporting documents from a number of military whistleblowers. WikiLeaks goes to great lengths to verify the authenticity of the information it receives. We have analyzed the information about this incident from a variety of source material. We have spoken to witnesses and journalists directly involved in the incident.

WikiLeaks wants to ensure that all the leaked information it receives gets the attention it deserves. In this particular case, some of the people killed were journalists that were simply doing their jobs: putting their lives at risk in order to report on war. Iraq is a very dangerous place for journalists: from 2003- 2009, 139 journalists were killed while doing their work.

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Old 04-05-2010, 08:22 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Yes, there's a trigger happy soldier involved, but let's not lose sight of the fact that the rules of engagement and entire approach makes these incidents inevitable or the fact that we literally can not trust a single word our leaders utter regarding these undeclared wars.

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"I could hear them...say they couldn't drive the [tanks] in because there were too many bodies and didn't want to drive over them." -Official Story

"I think they just drove over a body.
Really?
Yeah!" - Video footage
----------------------------------------------
"I know that two children were hurt, and we did everything we could to help them. I don't know how the children were hurt." - Official story

"Well, it's their fault for bringing their kids into a battle.
That's right." - Video footage
And let's not forget about Afghanistan:
U.S. Admits Role in February Killing of Afghan Women
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The statement said that “investigators could not conclusively determine how or when the women died, due to lack of forensic evidence” but that they had nonetheless “concluded that the women were accidentally killed as a result of the joint force firing at the men.”

“We deeply regret the outcome of this operation, accept responsibility for our actions that night, and know that this loss will be felt forever by the families,” said Brig. Gen. Eric Tremblay, a spokesman for the NATO command in Kabul.

The admission was an abrupt about-face. In a statement soon after the raid, NATO had claimed that its raiding party had stumbled upon the “bodies of three women who had been tied up, gagged and killed” and hidden in a room in the house. Military officials had also said later that the bodies showed signs of puncture and slashing wounds from a knife, and that the women appeared to have been killed several hours before the raid.

And in what would be a scandalous turn to the investigation, The Times of London reported Sunday night that Afghan investigators also determined that American forces not only killed the women but had also “dug bullets out of their victims’ bodies in the bloody aftermath” and then “washed the wounds with alcohol before lying to their superiors about what happened.”
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Old 04-05-2010, 11:59 PM   #3 (permalink)
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The parts where they laugh make me want to fly into rage mode, seriously. It's like how the **** do you have such a disregard for human life regardless of who the hell it is? I get that they're trained killers but ****, have some common decency, even your enemies have families.
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Old 04-06-2010, 12:22 AM   #4 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by TraMaI View Post
The parts where they laugh make me want to fly into rage mode, seriously. It's like how the **** do you have such a disregard for human life regardless of who the hell it is? I get that they're trained killers but ****, have some common decency, even your enemies have families.
It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets. ~Voltaire

I think there is a disconnect, a guise for people like this to take shelter under. That famous milgram stanley experiment explains to me how some men can do what they do without a shred of humanity. Although it is truly sad on our part.
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Old 04-06-2010, 02:39 AM   #5 (permalink)
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How right you are, sir.
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Old 04-06-2010, 05:30 AM   #6 (permalink)
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I guess if you keep killing enough random civilians, sooner or later you're going to accidentally kill someone that works for people influential enough to find out the truth.
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Old 04-06-2010, 07:59 AM   #7 (permalink)
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Not justifying the action but sometimes you really have to take the context in to situation. The bottom line is this is a tragedy and those affected; R.I.P.

Firstly I didn't actually watch the video, I merely spoke to a few friends about what it showed. I have no interest in seeing people die first hand.

But in a high stress environment and the mentality given to soldiers, well lets just say your perception can be quickly skewered. Whilst you or I may not have reacted in the same way, a trained solider who has been given the idea "it might be a gun" would probably serve as quite high up there on the justification reasons to fire. Hell, it's even justified according to the constitution.

What would you have done in that situation, bearing in mind for the past 2 years of your life you've been shot at, and killed people; generally handling things the average person couldn't stomach for a day.
I've just seen a few pictures from the video, and well the person holding a camera isn't exactly easily distinguishable from a man holding an AK. Also correct me if I'm wrong- but is there an Apache flying round, and they were worried about RPG's?

Also, and this pains me to say it, but until America improves the pay and conditions of service men (ESPECIALLY GRUNTS- not many sane men sign up as grunts) you will be scraping from the bottom of the barrel and acts like this will occur, unfortunately predictable. It's not just America either, it holds true of all actively functioning armies.

Again- I'm not justifying the action, especially as the soldiers were given clearance. But sometimes in the middle of a war when you have to react with split-second actions, things like this will occur. It's sad yes, but undeniably predictable and something similar will happen again, maybe that's the sadder thing.
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Old 04-06-2010, 11:21 AM   #8 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by FredFish1 View Post
Not justifying the action but sometimes you really have to take the context in to situation. The bottom line is this is a tragedy and those affected; R.I.P.

Firstly I didn't actually watch the video, I merely spoke to a few friends about what it showed. I have no interest in seeing people die first hand.
Very understandable, like I said it's not for those with a weak constitution.

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But in a high stress environment and the mentality given to soldiers, well lets just say your perception can be quickly skewered. Whilst you or I may not have reacted in the same way, a trained solider who has been given the idea "it might be a gun" would probably serve as quite high up there on the justification reasons to fire. Hell, it's even justified according to the constitution.
I understand this, I do. Had this been another situation, say, where soldiers are down the road from them looking through scopes and trying to find out what the "hostiles" are carrying it would be different, that would be near justifiable. My point is that they were in NO IMMINENT DANGER though. Like I said, judging by the bullet's travel time they were at the very least 2000+ feet away if not further. The bullets out of that gun travel at 2641 f/s, it takes roughly a second for the rounds to reach land when fired. The effective range for an AK-47 is roughly 300m at best (900ft) meaning that the bullets wouldn't even HIT let alone do damage. The RPGs they claimed they saw? They have a MAXIMUM effective range of 920m which could almost reach the chopper, but it also only travels at 115m/s (372f/s) and the probability of a hit becomes almost 1 in a million at that range. The RPGs hit probability drops to 4% at 500m, and I'm saying this chopper was at at LEAST 805m and probably further. Now, do I expect soldiers to know all that exact math and apply it to a situation? Hell no. But they SHOULD know that they're in no imminent danger from either weapon and properly scout the targets.

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What would you have done in that situation, bearing in mind for the past 2 years of your life you've been shot at, and killed people; generally handling things the average person couldn't stomach for a day.
I've just seen a few pictures from the video, and well the person holding a camera isn't exactly easily distinguishable from a man holding an AK. Also correct me if I'm wrong- but is there an Apache flying round, and they were worried about RPG's?
I find that hard to answer as I've never been in combat. Talking to my brother-in-law though (who was Marine Force Recon for 8 years), because I actually DID want the opinion of someone who's been there, he said those men acted completely wrong and were essentially "Glory hounding." How would I have acted though? I probably would've realized that an AK-47 and an RPG from that distance are going to do jack shit against my armored flying tank, taken a deep breath and properly scoped out the situation instead of immediately saying "That's a weapon!" and pegging the guy for death.

Quote:
Also, and this pains me to say it, but until America improves the pay and conditions of service men (ESPECIALLY GRUNTS- not many sane men sign up as grunts) you will be scraping from the bottom of the barrel and acts like this will occur, unfortunately predictable. It's not just America either, it holds true of all actively functioning armies.
I totally realize that, but there are sanctions in place for a reason and I'm saying that just because it's OUR army doesn't mean that they should get special treatment. How would the public be reacting had those been American reporters with an Iraqi pilot and gunner? They'd be having a God damn shit storm over it, that's for sure. Even though the situation is in a war your have to look at it objectively.

Quote:
Again- I'm not justifying the action, especially as the soldiers were given clearance. But sometimes in the middle of a war when you have to react with split-second actions, things like this will occur. It's sad yes, but undeniably predictable and something similar will happen again, maybe that's the sadder thing.
My entire point is that they DIDN'T have to react in a split second to the situation. The soldiers were in no eminent danger and poorly executed what they're supposed to be doing.


EDIT: Joe Rogan posted this on Twitter last night. It's an MSNBC panel going over what happened. at around 6 minutes and intelligence officer goes over the rules of engagement and the violations that happened during the incident.

Rules of engagement are:

- Only engage those that commit hostile acts or show hostile intent by using MINIMAL FORCE

- Capture and interrogate the hostiles instead of trying to kill all of them

- "Do not target or strike anyone who is out of combat due to sickness or WOUNDS"



Last edited by TraMaI : 04-06-2010 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 04-16-2010, 02:27 AM   #9 (permalink)
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Old 04-16-2010, 07:21 AM   #10 (permalink)
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Hindsight is always 20/20.
True but you also have to have SOME situational awareness at the same time. You can't just shoot whomever the **** you want then just say "well...if I had KNOWN that they had shown 0 aggression, had CAMERAS not guns, a van trying to pick up the dead and everyone was CIVILIANS then I wouldn't have murdered 15 innocent people"

God damn, seriously.
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