First off I want to say this has been a good thread... For the most part been good fun debating w/o having to call each other idiots morons etc... Props to everyone for that!
Originally Posted by murrayjb
BigRandy, if Couture were in pride and had to try to take the belt from FEDOR. Then i'm sure he would only have 1 Pride OWGP champ belt too...
And i'm just stating, you're saying hes a bit overhyped because his kickboxing record is 17-8....thats better than Randys 15-8 in MMA. It doesn't make him overrated, Cro Cop has improved a lot since his K-1 Days.
Thats not what Im saying. I purely brought up his K1 record because everyone (ok alot of people) are saying what a great Kick Boxer he was. I was only trying to show as a kickboxer he was Good but far from this great Kickboxer they make him out to be. And as for Randy fighting in Pride, I agree, he wouldn't of done as well. and not just because of Fedor. Randy's style is best suited in the cage, where he can use the cage against his opponents. Not saying he wouldn't have any success, but he's much better suited in the cage. As to Fedor vs Randy, Ive said before I hope I never see that fight. But if it ever does happen, his best chance at it will be in the cage.
Originally Posted by Fedor>all
I'm not trying to draw comparisons between Randy and Mirko, I'm just stating that both K1 and wrestling are different beasts than MMA. We're not arguing that Mirko is a great kickboxer, we are arguing that he is a great mixed martial artist.
Quite frankly being able to beat both Wanderlei Silva and Josh Barnett (a man that Couture has lost to) in a night is more impressive than Couture's title victories. Couture has NEVER faced the competition that Crocop has, the proof is in the pudding looking at who Randy has beaten for titles.
Don't think I'm nuthugging either, both fighters are among my favourites.
I agree totally. K1, wrestling, whatever are different beasts then MMA. And while you are not arguing that Cro Cop is a great Kickboxer, alot of people have stated that its how great a kickboxer he is that makes him such a great MMArtist and thats why I brought up his kickboxing record. And yes I totally agree that beating both Wandy and Josh Barnet is a single night is extremely impressive. To say Randy has never faced the competetion Mirko has is not fair. Cro Cop beat Barnet who beat Randy. Fair enough. but as to your pudding, Randy beat Kevin Randallman for the HW title and we all know that Randallman knocked Mirko out. Randy beat Chuck Liddel for the LHW title. Are these fighters Cans? I also wouldn't call Maurice Smith a can, maybe past his prime, but not a can. What about Pedro Rizzo, can? Vitor Belfort (who desimated Wandy), can? This is MMA and on any given day .... And really, Im not trying to be a Randy nut hugger either. Cro Cop is one of my favorite fighters. I was just saying that I believe he is a little overated.
Originally Posted by attention
It was mentioned earlier in this thread that CC's win/loss record in K1 supports that CC is overrated... and that conclusion is what I completely disagree with.
Actually, I only brought up Randy to illustrate that one cannot judge a fighter solely on the numbers *alone*.
17-8 or 15-8 ... are those losses OR wins to cans or *real* competition? To base a fighter purely on their win/loss ratio is ridiculous... as we all know, MMA MATH does not make any sense.
Background success in a specialized field assists in the assessment of a fighter...
ie. Randy's Olympic foray == His ground game is insanely strong ... As opposed to Tim Sylvia who has NO prior formal or professional training before coming to MMA.
The same conclusions are safe to draw from CC's foray in K1. ie. CC's striking is crazy arse.
Is CC a *little* overrated? I suppose its fair to say he is being built up too much by the UFC marketing engine. With all the media hype and high lite reels being played at nausea, I can see why people might come to this conclusion.
Thank you, THAT
is my point exactly. Dana White says how great he is and puts him in with some can for a quick win and people (you know the type Im refering to) put him on a pedestal. Treat him like he was the son of Fedor or something. Ive been watching Mirko fight since K1 and think he's a great fighter. But all I am saying is he ain't as great as everyone has been saying he is. Again, I only used his K1 record to help illistrate that he wasn't the great kickboxer that so many claim he is. Again, if they are going to say he is a great MMArtist because of his kickboxing then its fair to use his K1 record to show he wasn't that great. I also agree with you that numbers alone dont mean didelly. Look at one of Couture losses. Lost to belfort due to that cut to the eye with a punch that never really even connected within seconds of the 1st round. That fight should have never counted. Other fighters have loses due to poor judges decisions, bad ref stoppages all kinds of reasons that shouldn't reflect negatively on a fighter, but looking at the numbers they do. And also like you said, wins can be to no name cans just to inflate someones record. Cro Cop vs Sanchez and now Gonzaga and I bet ya, they will make a big deal about how he is undefeated in the octagon. (Funny, Dana won't give Rampage the extra tuneup fight he wanted to get used to the cage and UFC rules before he has to fight Liddel, but he gives the great Cro Cop a couple before he has to face Couture in the cage. Sorry thats a whole different topic altogether) and finally I have to absolutely agree with your post to Fedor>all, I would love to see Couture vs Big Nog.