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Old 04-17-2007, 01:44 PM   #81 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRandy
First.. As long as your not calling me names, no offense is ever taken...

Number 1, this is not a thread about Randy Couture and suggesting that counting Randy's collage wrestling losses is that same as counting Mirko's k1 record is the same thing is what is rediculous. K1 is professional fighting collage wrestling isn't. My point was/is, If he is such a great kickboxer then why shouldn't we look at his kickboxing record to see how good he really is? What is everyone basing their opinions on his kickboxing on if it isn't his kickboxing record. I gave him credit for his wins 17-8, but I was using it to show that I did think he was a tad overrated.

But you want to draw comparisons between Couture and Cro Cop and saying couture has 8 mma loses and mirko only has 4, ok lets. Randy Couture is a 5 time MMA Champion. The only man to hold the title in 2 different weight classes. Mirko has held how many titles??? ummmm 0 Yes, after 5 years of trying he finally won 1 pride gran prix, but he ain't never been a champion.

But to the question at hand, is Cro Cop the most overrated fighter in MMA, no, that's Ken Shamrock's place. But yes, Cro Cop is a little overrated. Im not saying he's not a great fighter, Im saying he's a little overratted.
I'm not trying to draw comparisons between Randy and Mirko, I'm just stating that both K1 and wrestling are different beasts than MMA. We're not arguing that Mirko is a great kickboxer, we are arguing that he is a great mixed martial artist.

Quite frankly being able to beat both Wanderlei Silva and Josh Barnett (a man that Couture has lost to) in a night is more impressive than Couture's title victories. Couture has NEVER faced the competition that Crocop has, the proof is in the pudding looking at who Randy has beaten for titles.

Don't think I'm nuthugging either, both fighters are among my favourites.
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Old 04-17-2007, 02:06 PM   #82 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigRandy
First.. As long as your not calling me names, no offense is ever taken...

Number 1, this is not a thread about Randy Couture and suggesting that counting Randy's collage wrestling losses is that same as counting Mirko's k1 record is the same thing is what is rediculous. K1 is professional fighting collage wrestling isn't. My point was/is, If he is such a great kickboxer then why shouldn't we look at his kickboxing record to see how good he really is? What is everyone basing their opinions on his kickboxing on if it isn't his kickboxing record. I gave him credit for his wins 17-8, but I was using it to show that I did think he was a tad overrated.

But you want to draw comparisons between Couture and Cro Cop and saying couture has 8 mma loses and mirko only has 4, ok lets. Randy Couture is a 5 time MMA Champion. The only man to hold the title in 2 different weight classes. Mirko has held how many titles??? ummmm 0 Yes, after 5 years of trying he finally won 1 pride gran prix, but he ain't never been a champion.

But to the question at hand, is Cro Cop the most overrated fighter in MMA, no, that's Ken Shamrock's place. But yes, Cro Cop is a little overrated. Im not saying he's not a great fighter, Im saying he's a little overratted.
It was mentioned earlier in this thread that CC's win/loss record in K1 supports that CC is overrated... and that conclusion is what I completely disagree with.

Actually, I only brought up Randy to illustrate that one cannot judge a fighter solely on the numbers *alone*.

17-8 or 15-8 ... are those losses OR wins to cans or *real* competition? To base a fighter purely on their win/loss ratio is ridiculous... as we all know, MMA MATH does not make any sense.

Background success in a specialized field assists in the assessment of a fighter...
ie. Randy's Olympic foray == His ground game is insanely strong ... As opposed to Tim Sylvia who has NO prior formal or professional training before coming to MMA.

The same conclusions are safe to draw from CC's foray in K1. ie. CC's striking is crazy arse.

Is CC a *little* overrated? I suppose its fair to say he is being built up too much by the UFC marketing engine. With all the media hype and high lite reels being played at nausea, I can see why people might come to this conclusion.
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Old 04-17-2007, 02:11 PM   #83 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedor>all
I'm not trying to draw comparisons between Randy and Mirko, I'm just stating that both K1 and wrestling are different beasts than MMA. We're not arguing that Mirko is a great kickboxer, we are arguing that he is a great mixed martial artist.

Quite frankly being able to beat both Wanderlei Silva and Josh Barnett (a man that Couture has lost to) in a night is more impressive than Couture's title victories. Couture has NEVER faced the competition that Crocop has, the proof is in the pudding looking at who Randy has beaten for titles.

Don't think I'm nuthugging either, both fighters are among my favourites.
agreed.

Personally, I would love to see a bout between Big Nog and Captain America...

I think its hard to compare CC & Randy against each other since they really dont have any cross over competition AND they have never faced each other.

With the new UFC-Pride consolidation, it will shake out alot of these questions
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Old 04-17-2007, 02:34 PM   #84 (permalink)
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not over rated

Cro Cop is a great striker and fighters stick to what they are good at and gets the win. He is not the greatest well rounded fighter. But again neither is Chuck he spralls and stays up on his feet and if he gets taken down gets right back up or waits to get the standup. I think Cro Cop will do the same in UFC. The disadvantage is he cannot attack a grounded opponent which is allowed in Japan but not in the states. Cro Cop likes attacking the grounded opponent in Pride. Overall he is not over rated just I think over advertised.
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Old 04-17-2007, 09:40 PM   #85 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by js9234
I would think fighters would prefer the cage over a ring. You can use the cage when you get your opponent against it and smash his face. I haven't watched enough Pride fights YET to see the advantages of a ring over a cage.
The Cage is huge, and there are no corners. It's not necessarily a disadvantage to all fighters, but to a guy like Cro Cop I think it's a real disadvantage. Cro Cop has a very offensive game, when opponents (in pride) "ran" from him, the shape of ring meant that if Cro Cop followed him around the ring in a circular fashion, there will be one point where it will be a very tight space and Cro Cop gets close enough to strike. After one attack the opponent falls into the corner. Which is perfect. That doesn't just go for Cro Cop - generally it means the fighter can only walk away for a few steps, and will eventually meet a confrontation.

Because the cage is round, the opponent can just walk back and back and end up circling the ring while, as we saw with Eddie, Cro Cop chases him. This makes the fights very boring imo, and drags them on. Also the 5 minuet per round thing is ridiculous to me - how you gonna give them a breather in 5 minutes?

Also because it's so easy for fighters to escape because of the round shape and huge area, not only does it reduce the amount of confrontations, but it also reduces the intensity of the confrontation.

Another thing I dislike about the cage is that it's disrespectful to the fighters... It makes them seem like caged animals. As Nick Diaz said, he loves the respect he gets in Pride, and he loves the run as apposed to the cage. I mean, I'm pretty sure the whole cage thing was created for publicity and novelty, to make ufc more accessible to middle america. I don't think it holds much merit, or many positive aspects. It also makes it harder to see for the live fans...

Last edited by scepticILL : 04-17-2007 at 09:44 PM.
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:08 PM   #86 (permalink)
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First off I want to say this has been a good thread... For the most part been good fun debating w/o having to call each other idiots morons etc... Props to everyone for that!

Quote:
Originally Posted by murrayjb
BigRandy, if Couture were in pride and had to try to take the belt from FEDOR. Then i'm sure he would only have 1 Pride OWGP champ belt too...

And i'm just stating, you're saying hes a bit overhyped because his kickboxing record is 17-8....thats better than Randys 15-8 in MMA. It doesn't make him overrated, Cro Cop has improved a lot since his K-1 Days.
Thats not what Im saying. I purely brought up his K1 record because everyone (ok alot of people) are saying what a great Kick Boxer he was. I was only trying to show as a kickboxer he was Good but far from this great Kickboxer they make him out to be. And as for Randy fighting in Pride, I agree, he wouldn't of done as well. and not just because of Fedor. Randy's style is best suited in the cage, where he can use the cage against his opponents. Not saying he wouldn't have any success, but he's much better suited in the cage. As to Fedor vs Randy, Ive said before I hope I never see that fight. But if it ever does happen, his best chance at it will be in the cage.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fedor>all
I'm not trying to draw comparisons between Randy and Mirko, I'm just stating that both K1 and wrestling are different beasts than MMA. We're not arguing that Mirko is a great kickboxer, we are arguing that he is a great mixed martial artist.

Quite frankly being able to beat both Wanderlei Silva and Josh Barnett (a man that Couture has lost to) in a night is more impressive than Couture's title victories. Couture has NEVER faced the competition that Crocop has, the proof is in the pudding looking at who Randy has beaten for titles.

Don't think I'm nuthugging either, both fighters are among my favourites.
I agree totally. K1, wrestling, whatever are different beasts then MMA. And while you are not arguing that Cro Cop is a great Kickboxer, alot of people have stated that its how great a kickboxer he is that makes him such a great MMArtist and thats why I brought up his kickboxing record. And yes I totally agree that beating both Wandy and Josh Barnet is a single night is extremely impressive. To say Randy has never faced the competetion Mirko has is not fair. Cro Cop beat Barnet who beat Randy. Fair enough. but as to your pudding, Randy beat Kevin Randallman for the HW title and we all know that Randallman knocked Mirko out. Randy beat Chuck Liddel for the LHW title. Are these fighters Cans? I also wouldn't call Maurice Smith a can, maybe past his prime, but not a can. What about Pedro Rizzo, can? Vitor Belfort (who desimated Wandy), can? This is MMA and on any given day .... And really, Im not trying to be a Randy nut hugger either. Cro Cop is one of my favorite fighters. I was just saying that I believe he is a little overated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by attention
It was mentioned earlier in this thread that CC's win/loss record in K1 supports that CC is overrated... and that conclusion is what I completely disagree with.

Actually, I only brought up Randy to illustrate that one cannot judge a fighter solely on the numbers *alone*.

17-8 or 15-8 ... are those losses OR wins to cans or *real* competition? To base a fighter purely on their win/loss ratio is ridiculous... as we all know, MMA MATH does not make any sense.

Background success in a specialized field assists in the assessment of a fighter...
ie. Randy's Olympic foray == His ground game is insanely strong ... As opposed to Tim Sylvia who has NO prior formal or professional training before coming to MMA.

The same conclusions are safe to draw from CC's foray in K1. ie. CC's striking is crazy arse.

Is CC a *little* overrated? I suppose its fair to say he is being built up too much by the UFC marketing engine. With all the media hype and high lite reels being played at nausea, I can see why people might come to this conclusion.
Thank you, THAT is my point exactly. Dana White says how great he is and puts him in with some can for a quick win and people (you know the type Im refering to) put him on a pedestal. Treat him like he was the son of Fedor or something. Ive been watching Mirko fight since K1 and think he's a great fighter. But all I am saying is he ain't as great as everyone has been saying he is. Again, I only used his K1 record to help illistrate that he wasn't the great kickboxer that so many claim he is. Again, if they are going to say he is a great MMArtist because of his kickboxing then its fair to use his K1 record to show he wasn't that great. I also agree with you that numbers alone dont mean didelly. Look at one of Couture losses. Lost to belfort due to that cut to the eye with a punch that never really even connected within seconds of the 1st round. That fight should have never counted. Other fighters have loses due to poor judges decisions, bad ref stoppages all kinds of reasons that shouldn't reflect negatively on a fighter, but looking at the numbers they do. And also like you said, wins can be to no name cans just to inflate someones record. Cro Cop vs Sanchez and now Gonzaga and I bet ya, they will make a big deal about how he is undefeated in the octagon. (Funny, Dana won't give Rampage the extra tuneup fight he wanted to get used to the cage and UFC rules before he has to fight Liddel, but he gives the great Cro Cop a couple before he has to face Couture in the cage. Sorry thats a whole different topic altogether) and finally I have to absolutely agree with your post to Fedor>all, I would love to see Couture vs Big Nog.
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Old 04-17-2007, 10:55 PM   #87 (permalink)
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The reason he didnt give rampage the extra warm up about is because its hard to find people to get in there with liddell he strikes fear in people in that weight class, plus he probablly offered quinton a nice sum of money for him to step right in like that. I think cro cop would get run over by randy but let him build a reputation with the ufc fans as a destroyer and when he does fight Randy they will have people questioning randy saying cro cop is dangerous and it makes a more exciting fight. I'd rather see arlovski and cro cop go at it. Either way i dont care if its Cro cop, arlovski, fedor, sylvia, Randy Couture is going to hang on to that belt for a while and no one can stop him.
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Old 04-18-2007, 12:09 AM   #88 (permalink)
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Quote:
Originally Posted by snook_crook
The reason he didnt give rampage the extra warm up about is because its hard to find people to get in there with liddell he strikes fear in people in that weight class, plus he probablly offered quinton a nice sum of money for him to step right in like that. I think cro cop would get run over by randy but let him build a reputation with the ufc fans as a destroyer and when he does fight Randy they will have people questioning randy saying cro cop is dangerous and it makes a more exciting fight. I'd rather see arlovski and cro cop go at it. Either way i dont care if its Cro cop, arlovski, fedor, sylvia, Randy Couture is going to hang on to that belt for a while and no one can stop him.
I'm sorry to get off topic (my own fault I started it), but I think your wrong. Liddel is Dana's golden boy and rampage has already beaten him once. I believe that Dana is trying to manipulate the situation here to give Liddel more of an advantage (if you can call it that). He wants reampage to face Chuck while rampage is still a little uneasy about the cage and UFC's rules. The opposite is true with Cro Cop. He wants the belt around Cro Cops waist so he is giving Cro Cop the time to get used to the cage and rules before he fight Randy. I have said before, the sooner the fight happens, the better for Randy. Dana also knew this and is taking that advantage away from him.

As to Randy holding the belt for awhile, I hope you are right. I think he will defend against Cro Cop, but then think Big Nog will be the next fight and right now, I don't even want to try and call that. Big Nog as some serious skills. But I think if Randy survives that he will lose the belt to Cro Cop in a rematch. Other heavies out there, I see Randy beating Sylvia in a rematch, Randy over AA by decision, Randy over Brandon Vera just by his experience alone. I also wouldn't mind seeing him go down to Light Heavy to fight Rampage. I think that would be a great fight.

Anyway, sorry everyone for posting so far off topic.
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Old 04-18-2007, 04:17 PM   #89 (permalink)
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The most overrated fighter of all time is simple. TIM SYLVIA. He has a horrible ground game and takedown defense. His stand up sucks its really slow and he doesnt have knockout power in his hands he has never ko'd anyone with one punch. The only reason he wins at all is because of his size im telling you if he was 6'2 or so he'd never win a fight and thats a fact.
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Old 04-18-2007, 06:01 PM   #90 (permalink)
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give me a break... you even have to ask that one????

Cro Cop will clean house... not that I want him to, but Randy has a mountain ahead of him.
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