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Old 05-03-2013, 12:48 AM   #51 (permalink)
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Not meaning to dismiss the rest of your post. You have a valid perspective. It's not my perspective, but its valid none the less.

But the quote above says it all. I grew up in some seriously grimy part of London. Rough. If you we're gay you would have got your head kicked in if anybody found out. "Gay bashing" was a common passtime for caveman hooligans.

Now, as you say, its in hushed tones and insular groups. In other words, they have no more power. They wont find you and beat half to death. The worse that happens is some irrelevant wanker says some nasty words. Thats it. I really dont consider the current climate that hostile for a gay person, especially in the citys.
aha!!! that's where we differ. see, that moon location thing messed me up... everyone knows there is so much gay bashing in the lunar colonies, it seemed odd you didn't see it.
anyway, yeah, the whole middle chunk of the US is christian right wing fundamentalists in power and this homophobia is rampant there; while they are less people than the more tolerant coasts, there's still A LOT OF PEOPLE and the norm there is hate... or at least turning a blind eye and silently accepting. (one day i'll tell you about the Klean Klothes Kleaners in downtown Chattanooga, Tennessee; not it's not misspelled)

i'm glad the UK has gotten itself straight... i've seen documentaries about the 60's gay rights in London... ye gads! it's not that bad here anymore, mostly, but you get the occasional spark.


i'll let you be now... but i'll know whenever there is social injustice, you'll be there. whenever there is intolerance, you'll be there. whenever someone is wrong on the internet.... gosh darn it.... you'll be there! because you're not the user we want; but you're the user MMA Forum deserves!

i'll f'n shut up now......
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:16 AM   #52 (permalink)
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Yeah I like Soojooko and hes a smart guy but in the stats these flagrant homophobes actually do have a lot of power and their bigotry is reflected in social policy.

The problem with our obnoxious culture is people are too busy worrying about what Tim ******* Hardaway thinks about the gays than guys who are deciding how gays can actually live their lives.


Tim Hardaway doesn't go around beating up gay people or discriminating against gay people...he just doesn't like them..who the hell cares?


The worst thing about it is that a lot of times the latent bigots themselves are the ones out there demonizing the overt ones the most.
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Old 05-03-2013, 04:25 AM   #53 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Roflcopter View Post
Yeah I like Soojooko and hes a smart guy but in the stats these flagrant homophobes actually do have a lot of power and their bigotry is reflected in social policy.

The problem with our obnoxious culture is people are too busy worrying about what Tim ******* Hardaway thinks about the gays than guys who are deciding how gays can actually live their lives.


Tim Hardaway doesn't go around beating up gay people or discriminating against gay people...he just doesn't like them..who the hell cares?


The worst thing about it is that a lot of times the latent bigots themselves are the ones out there demonizing the overt ones the most.
Yes usually there's some politician or leader who speaks out about how bad drugs and being a homo is and then it comes out that he's on the business end of a glory hole or he is caught snorting cocaine or something.
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Old 05-03-2013, 06:38 AM   #54 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jesy Blue View Post
aha!!! that's where we differ. see, that moon location thing messed me up... everyone knows there is so much gay bashing in the lunar colonies, it seemed odd you didn't see it.
anyway, yeah, the whole middle chunk of the US is christian right wing fundamentalists in power and this homophobia is rampant there; while they are less people than the more tolerant coasts, there's still A LOT OF PEOPLE and the norm there is hate... or at least turning a blind eye and silently accepting. (one day i'll tell you about the Klean Klothes Kleaners in downtown Chattanooga, Tennessee; not it's not misspelled)

i'm glad the UK has gotten itself straight... i've seen documentaries about the 60's gay rights in London... ye gads! it's not that bad here anymore, mostly, but you get the occasional spark.


i'll let you be now... but i'll know whenever there is social injustice, you'll be there. whenever there is intolerance, you'll be there. whenever someone is wrong on the internet.... gosh darn it.... you'll be there! because you're not the user we want; but you're the user MMA Forum deserves!

i'll f'n shut up now......
Yes. There are huge swathes of America full of backwards idiots. But in context, that's not where this particular basketball player lives. If you live in the deep south where there is a heavy anti-gay movement, then it takes some stones for a gay person to come out. But this player plays for Washington, right? So, I ask, how does a Washington basketball player coming out on TV "inspire" a sportman who lives in the deep south to do the same thing? ( whats sports do they play in the south anyway? I bet its not basketball ) In my opinion, it doesn't do shit. That's why I feel this whole thing was an exercise in attention seeking.

If you live in Washington, just be gay for gods sake. All the hard work has been done. It's been accepted. Mission accomplished. Go out there and be openly gay. That's how to go about it. You are not going to get any negative shit happen to you. If anything, people will pat you on the back and tell you how brave you are.

Disclaimer: Im making massive assumptions about Washington being a forward thinking, civil pace to live. I could be completely wrong of course. I'm open to some education from my US brethren.


Having said all the above, in the UK, the average football fan is a backwards caveman. Every Saturday, all the nastiest, most bigoted people in the country all gather at football matches. If a player came out as gay, he would get some god awful stick. But words is all it is. The anti-gay mob dont have a fraction of the power they did. In this climate, the best way to come out is to come out by being openly gay. Not by holding a conference. A conference, in my opinion, makes things worse.
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Old 05-03-2013, 08:28 AM   #55 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
Disclaimer: Im making massive assumptions about Washington being a forward thinking, civil pace to live. I could be completely wrong of course. I'm open to some education from my US brethren.

Washington, DC is an odd city. it's halfway up the coast, so it's a little southern and a little northern. it's mostly urban with an incredibly large poor black community and major drug problems (though has toned down in the past decade to just a big drug problem)

it's where the federal government is based out of, so forward thinking may not be the best word (the opposite of Progress is Congress after all).

the other thing is the most common dream for poor black men is to play basketball and work to be able to play in the NBA to escape this life of poverty you grew up in... and most poor black communities are in those huge swaths of the american south we're talking about.

so for this basketball player, someone who is living that ideal dream you have for yourself to get out of the ghetto, which hates gays, comes out and says you can have the dream AND be who you are, that's actually a big deal around here.
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Old 05-03-2013, 09:07 AM   #56 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Jesy Blue View Post
so for this basketball player, someone who is living that ideal dream you have for yourself to get out of the ghetto, which hates gays, comes out and says you can have the dream AND be who you are, that's actually a big deal around here.
I understand that. But I still dont understand the point of this interview/press release/whatever it was. This basketball player doesn't live in the Ghetto any more. I've no doubt he lives in a civilized sensible non-racist non-homophobic area. Just go out with your boyfriend publicly. Do whatever you want to do. You are *free* to do that. The media will still pick up on it. The story will still be reported. Everybody will know you are gay because thats who you are and thats how you live... But to set up a soapbox and stand there proclaiming "I'm gay!" like some Mary Poppins mother****er? Naaa... attention seeking.

And if anybody believes that some rich ex-ghetto player coming out in an interview is gonna somehow help gay people in the ghetto? Tripping is that idea. Having no money is the ghettos problem. No jobs. No education. No prospects. Those are the ghettos problems. You sort those out and your homophobia issues disappear. Some bloke on TV proclaiming his gayness does feck all to help anybody.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:25 AM   #57 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
I understand that. But I still dont understand the point of this interview/press release/whatever it was. This basketball player doesn't live in the Ghetto any more. I've no doubt he lives in a civilized sensible non-racist non-homophobic area. Just go out with your boyfriend publicly. Do whatever you want to do. You are *free* to do that. The media will still pick up on it. The story will still be reported. Everybody will know you are gay because thats who you are and thats how you live... But to set up a soapbox and stand there proclaiming "I'm gay!" like some Mary Poppins mother****er? Naaa... attention seeking.

And if anybody believes that some rich ex-ghetto player coming out in an interview is gonna somehow help gay people in the ghetto? Tripping is that idea. Having no money is the ghettos problem. No jobs. No education. No prospects. Those are the ghettos problems. You sort those out and your homophobia issues disappear. Some bloke on TV proclaiming his gayness does feck all to help anybody.

wait, mary poppins is gay? i must have missed a press conference.

so fixing the entire social structure of a country CAN resolve most of the ghetto problems, on that you are absolutely correct. but homophobia is also tied to religious leanings, which will not be corrected as long as the people in religious control elect like minded religious leaders into government positions and run on anti-gay political standings making anti-gay laws to make their religious views legal views.

i know the percentage of UK christian religious followers is somewhere in the 40%-50% range of the whole population, so the idea that christian agenda in politics may be an odd concept in the modern British society (but as history tells us, we know it did happen there long ago as well).

in the states it's 75+% religious believers, and these people are voting with their cross; we have 5 congressmen on the federal committee on science who believe in creationism and don't believe in global warming and they're making laws about gay rights!

as my cousin from Sussex once told me "Anytime you get fed up with your 'freedom' just remember, this is what you wanted."

you and me ain't gonna work out the Socratic society and make the world a better place on this board across the atlantic, but we definitely both see the problems. i think you see the problem as easily fixable, but i see them as only baby steps along a long road.
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Old 05-03-2013, 11:46 AM   #58 (permalink)
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you and me ain't gonna work out the Socratic society and make the world a better place on this board across the atlantic, but we definitely both see the problems. i think you see the problem as easily fixable, but i see them as only baby steps along a long road.
Indeed. I agree. I just wanted to take a moment to appreciate the work done over the last few decades by people far braver then this Jason Collins fool. People who paved the way so that people like Collins can be themselves publicly without fear of persecution... or the need to declare your sexuality on TV.

Baby steps is right. But lets not underestimate haw many of these baby steps have already been taken by social pioneers in the past.

I think we're 90% on the same page to be honest. Just a baby step apart!

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Old 05-03-2013, 12:11 PM   #59 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Soojooko View Post
Indeed. I agree. I just wanted to take a moment to appreciate the work done over the last few decades by people far braver then this Jason Collins fool. People who paved the way so that people like Collins can be themselves publicly without fear of persecution... or the need to declare your sexuality on TV.

Baby steps is right. But lets not underestimate haw many of these baby steps have already been taken by social pioneers in the past.

I think we're 90% on the same page to be honest. Just a baby step apart!

Side note...
Mary Poppins is the gayest thing in the universe.
What about Rent?
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Old 05-03-2013, 05:23 PM   #60 (permalink)
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Side note...
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i will have to watch it again.
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