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Old 12-30-2007, 07:07 PM   #1 (permalink)
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9 months later, can we answer the question yet?

If you didn't immediately know what question i was talking about, im talking about the age old question. Which organisation has the better fighters. Pride or UFC?

Now before you all reach for the neg rep button, or flame me to hell, know that i ask this question without an agenda. I don't have a favorite organisation, nor do i have a favorite fighter....i typically like to call it how i see it. I realise that this thread may still be a bit premature, but after last night i was thinking about it a little. So in that spirit, lets break it down if we can.

The CroCop
Shogun
Rampage
Nog
Wandy
Werdum
Herring
Henderson
Sokoudjou
Chonan

All solid Pride fighters that have come to the UFC. Of those, Nog and Hendo can't be counted because they have not fought any UFC guys. So that leaves -

The CroCop
Rampage
Shogun
Wandy
Werdum
Herring
Sokoudjou
Chonan.

CroCop has been a big disappointment for seemingly various reasons, or maybe he just came up against better fighters. You decide. Personally, i think once people figured him out, he wasn't as scary and suddenly looked vulnerable.

Rampage has had great success. KOed his gatekeeper, then demolished the long time LHW champ. I don't think anyone can question Rampage, and he is probably the best argument Pride fans have.

Wandy just lost a great fight against Chuck. For a long time both these guys were the best of both organisations, and as such, make good measuring sticks. Well, Chuck out struck Wand, and some would argue that it proves the UFC's 205 division is better than Prides.

Shogun got choked out by a "TUF Noob" when he was supposed to be no.1 LHW in the world.

Werdum, highly touted, lost to AA, who lost to Big Tim. Make of that what you will.

Herring - meh. That guys going nowhere in the UFC despite all the hype and fanfare he came in with.

Sokky just got made look foolish at the hands of Machida.

Chonan just lost to a guy who i don't see topping 170 in the UFC in Karo. Honestly though, i almost didn't count Chonan against Pride because he wasn't really that good there either.

At the end of that day, we have 8 guys, 1 winner, and 7 losers. Forgive me Pride fans, but that is not a very good trend. The only thing that keeps me from saying outright that Pride clearly wasn't as tough as the UFC is Nog & Hendo. If they win, then the debate will continue, but if they lose, then im afraid the answer will be obvious. The UFC by and large is just a tougher organisation to fight in. There are no gimme fights, and the top guys don't ever fight cans. The top of the food chain Pride guys don't look so great in the UFC because the general level of competition is just higher.

Frankly, i don't think you can compare and 15-2 pride record to a 15-2 UFC record. The Pride record is going to almost always be padded with forgettable names, or ex-UFC guys that can't hang in the UFC anymore.

What do you guys think? Is it too early to talk about this? Or have we seen enough? I think we'll have a much better idea in 6 months when these guys have fought a couple more times....but hey, this is a discussion board. Discuss.
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Last edited by Flak : 12-30-2007 at 07:17 PM.
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Old 12-30-2007, 07:11 PM   #2 (permalink)
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Give it up man. Who cares? There's too many variables to come to a conclusive answer. So just let it go. It's pedantic.
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Old 12-30-2007, 07:16 PM   #3 (permalink)
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you forgot about forrest griffin choking out shogun.
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Old 12-30-2007, 07:19 PM   #4 (permalink)
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Oops! Post amended.

Disappointing this was immediately bounced to smacktalk....i don't think this is smack talk at all. I was hoping for an intelligent and unbiased discussion....but apparently this doesn't qualify.
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Old 12-30-2007, 07:46 PM   #5 (permalink)
 
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You know the thin is alot of it is style based, I think if Pride had bought the UFC we would have seen Randy, Chuck, Tim Sylvia and Hughes all get the same devastating losses since they would be the ones to have to contend with the loss of the cage which for a guy like Couture would cause a major problem and also with the change in rules were they would be forced to adapt to socer kicks and stomps much like the Pride guys have had to adapt to not being able to corner there opponants and having a large part of there arsenal in the kicks removed. These losses dont prove that Pride had inferior fighters.
To ever truly find out who had better fighters I think they would need to have two tournaments one under pride rules in the octagon and one under UFC rules in the ring. otherwise its a question of who excels under a certain circumstance better and not who is better, the UFC guys have fought numerous times under these circumstances, wait a year and then we could at least come to a somewhat better conclusion as the Pride guys get more experiance in the UFC and have had somewhat more equal time to adapt.
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Old 12-30-2007, 07:50 PM   #6 (permalink)
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Neither organization is better or worse. Both have great fighters.
Pride people have been losing their debuts (minus CC) when they have looked horrible or are facing opponents who are already considered good.
Plus, Pride and UFC are completely different. Dominating one doesn't translate to the other organization.

The CroCop - Has looked horrible. You can use him as reasoning that UFC is better but it's not the same CC that fought in Pride.
Rampage - He's looked great.
Shogun - He gassed, he didn't train hard, Forrest griffin got a lot better.
Wandy - He lost to someone who's a horrible style match up for him and one of the many excellent fighters the UFC already had.
Werdum - Like Wanderlei he lost to many of the fighters everyone already knew was excellent and everyone, even the Pride fans, knew could compete anywhere.
Herring - He's looked bad, not the normal Herring at all.
Sokoudjou - he got dominated by Machida, a better fighter. But when a majority of the Pride vs UFC talk was going down, Machida was not part of the discussion at all. Using him as evidence of UFC being better is unfair.

I'm not taking into account the cage, rule differences, style differences and the fact for most it's their first fight in the UFC(I don't meant like fighting styles but the way you fight in each organization, such as UFC is more influenced by game plans).

I'd say in the end, they are both good.
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Old 12-30-2007, 08:03 PM   #7 (permalink)
 
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Originally Posted by GMW View Post
Plus, Pride and UFC are completely different. Dominating one doesn't translate to the other organization.

Exactly!!!
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Old 12-30-2007, 08:22 PM   #8 (permalink)
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See all that reasoning used to fly with me, but i kept expecting that eventually, more than a few would catch on. 7 out of 8 guys fail because of the cage and the rules? I don't think im buying it anymore.

What? They ALL have styles that don't work in the cage? Clearly a stalking stratergy like The CroCop's doesn't translate for obvious reasons, but few of these guys have that style. Is it not possible that the general level of competition in Pride was lower, so they looked better than what they are when stacked against UFC fighters? I'm beginning to think that's true.

We're not talking about a few Pride guys failing, at this point we're talking about EVERY Pride star failing except for Rampage. I expected growing pains etc, but it's getting ridiculous.
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Old 12-30-2007, 08:24 PM   #9 (permalink)
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Seriously man, just when we thought the UFC/PRIDE bullshit was done you go to the bottom of all MMA discussion and force this shit upon us again. let it go, we dont care, they were completely different organizations with completely different rules and types of fighters. Why must you be so inclined to know who has the better fighters? Are these people on the payrolls or what?
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Old 12-30-2007, 08:25 PM   #10 (permalink)
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Heh, just got my first neg rep for this. Pretty funny one too considering the harmless nature of the post. You'd like i just tea bagged this dudes mum or something

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