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Old 06-26-2008, 10:10 AM   #31 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
IMO, if you get injured IN the cage and it's not because of an illegal maneveur of your opponent, it's your fault.
Does this sound like something a lawyer would say or something a judge would say?

Neither. It's something only an insurance adjuster would say.

So if you KO'd me with a head kick and I fell against the cage in such a way as to break one of my fingers, that would definitively be MY fault? How could my unconscious self be blamed for something I did not have complete control over?

Freak accidents happen from time-to-time. The sports world has seen many of them. Combat sports are no exception. They may be rare, but they do occur.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:25 AM   #32 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by browncow View Post
Does this sound like something a lawyer would say or something a judge would say?

Neither. It's something only an insurance adjuster would say.

So if you KO'd me with a head kick and I fell against the cage in such a way as to break one of my fingers, that would definitively be MY fault? How could my unconscious self be blamed for something I did not have complete control over?

Freak accidents happen from time-to-time. The sports world has seen many of them. Combat sports are no exception. They may be rare, but they do occur.
You put yourself in a position to get kicked in the face, you knew the cage was there and that you could fall against it, it's a small probability but if it happens, it's your lack of ability to defend yourself that made it possible in the 1st place. It's like saying it wasn't Shogun's fault that he broke his arm, if he had been able to avoid the takedown, his arm would have been fine.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:37 AM   #33 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
You put yourself in a position to get kicked in the face, you knew the cage was there and that you could fall against it, it's a small probability but if it happens, it's your lack of ability to defend yourself that made it possible in the 1st place. It's like saying it wasn't Shogun's fault that he broke his arm, if he had been able to avoid the takedown, his arm would have been fine.
I see this as arguing just to argue.

You can't really tell me that you think that someone getting hurt in a freak accident is there own fault and they should have been more prepared. I could see if we were talking about someone that doesn't train BJJ getting out there and while trying to do a gogoplata, tears a ligament in their knee, but that's not the case here.

BJ was taking Matt's back from a weird position and seperated his ribs while doing it. I don't know why you have so much trouble giving certain fighters any credit.

Here are the FACTS. BJ lost to Matt Hughes. BJ was winning the fight until the start of the third round. BJ seperated his ribs in the 2nd round. And you can dispute BJ winning the first two rounds all you want, Matt Hughes himself said that BJ won the first two and that he knew he had three rounds left to come back.

If you feel that Matt could have won the fight without that happening, then fine, you have the right to feel that way. But to carry on about how BJ should have trained properly to take Matt's back without hurting his ribs is just foolish. That kind of stuff happens, there's no way to take it out of the equation.

Maybe somone should be telling you that Fedor needs to train to take a punch without bleeding.
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Old 06-26-2008, 10:54 AM   #34 (permalink)
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So are you saying "if only BJ hadn't hurt his ribs he would have beaten Matt Hughes!"? Classic example of what this thread is about and how dumb arguments like that are. The fight happened, BJ got hurt and then got beat. It's OK man, nobody thinks less of BJ Penn because he lost to Matt Hughes.
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:02 AM   #35 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Chrisl972 View Post
I see this as arguing just to argue.

You can't really tell me that you think that someone getting hurt in a freak accident is there own fault and they should have been more prepared. I could see if we were talking about someone that doesn't train BJJ getting out there and while trying to do a gogoplata, tears a ligament in their knee, but that's not the case here.

BJ was taking Matt's back from a weird position and seperated his ribs while doing it. I don't know why you have so much trouble giving certain fighters any credit.

Here are the FACTS. BJ lost to Matt Hughes. BJ was winning the fight until the start of the third round. BJ seperated his ribs in the 2nd round. And you can dispute BJ winning the first two rounds all you want, Matt Hughes himself said that BJ won the first two and that he knew he had three rounds left to come back.

If you feel that Matt could have won the fight without that happening, then fine, you have the right to feel that way. But to carry on about how BJ should have trained properly to take Matt's back without hurting his ribs is just foolish. That kind of stuff happens, there's no way to take it out of the equation.

Maybe somone should be telling you that Fedor needs to train to take a punch without bleeding.
Who got in that position? BJ. If he knew he could get injured, he shouldn't have pulled that move, if he didn't then learn your limits and don't try to do crazy shit. I never said he didn't won the 1st two rounds, but he lost the match, Cro Cop was winning against Nog too until Nog pulled that armbar out of his ass and I don't see people making as much as excuses as BJ nuthuggers do.

As I said it's like the Shogun example, what were the probabilities of his arm breaking when being taken down by Coleman? Probably low, but it happened and Coleman won the match, next time avoid the takedown and there will be 0% chance of getting injured.

Oh, and I don't see why you bring Fedor when bleeding easily is nothing that has hindered him for being undefeated. And since you brought Fedor, when he broke his hand against Mirko he still pulled off the victory, if BJ is so great why didn't he do the same?

Last edited by Pyros : 06-26-2008 at 11:05 AM.
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:14 AM   #36 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
Who got in that position? BJ. If he knew he could get injured, he shouldn't have pulled that move, if he didn't then learn your limits and don't try to do crazy shit. I never said he didn't won the 1st two rounds, but he lost the match, Cro Cop was winning against Nog too until Nog pulled that armbar out of his ass and I don't see people making as much as excuses as BJ nuthuggers do.

As I said it's like the Shogun example, what were the probabilities of his arm breaking when being taken down by Coleman? Probably low, but it happened and Coleman won the match, next time avoid the takedown and there will be 0% chance of getting injured.

Oh, and I don't see why you bring Fedor when bleeding easily is nothing that has hindered him for being undefeated. And since you brought Fedor, when he broke his hand against Mirko he still pulled off the victory, if BJ is so great why didn't he do the same?
Pyros, do you realize that you could get injured at pretty much any point of the fight except for the staredown.

A broken hand and seperated ribs are two totally different things a lot of fighters fight with broken hands/wrist when you have a seperated rib it is hard to breath which as we have seen puts you at a disadvantage in the cage/ring.
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:17 AM   #37 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by Pyros View Post
As I said it's like the Shogun example, what were the probabilities of his arm breaking when being taken down by Coleman? Probably low, but it happened and Coleman won the match, next time avoid the takedown and there will be 0% chance of getting injured.
I think Chris was more or less saying freak accidents occur that aren't always a direct result of the fighter making a wrong or overzealous decision. Using your example, suppose in an attempt to avoid the TD and breaking his arm, Shogun sprawls and blows a hamstring. Is it then his fault for trying to avoid the TD? His fault for not being a high-jump specialist on the track team in high school and leaping over Coleman altogether? His fault for taking the fight at all? This doesn't really end anywhere productive...
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:32 AM   #38 (permalink)
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Originally Posted by All_In_GSP View Post




I think Chris was more or less saying freak accidents occur that aren't always a direct result of the fighter making a wrong or overzealous decision. Using your example, suppose in an attempt to avoid the TD and breaking his arm, Shogun sprawls and blows a hamstring. Is it then his fault for trying to avoid the TD? His fault for not being a high-jump specialist on the track team in high school and leaping over Coleman altogether? His fault for taking the fight at all? This doesn't really end anywhere productive...
Why should he pull a hamstring if he performed the sprawl correctly? Injuries usually occur when you try crazy moves for which your body are not used to, how many times has someone pulled a hamstring during a sprawl?
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:32 AM   #39 (permalink)
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So are you saying "if only BJ hadn't hurt his ribs he would have beaten Matt Hughes!"? Classic example of what this thread is about and how dumb arguments like that are. The fight happened, BJ got hurt and then got beat. It's OK man, nobody thinks less of BJ Penn because he lost to Matt Hughes.
That's not what I'm saying in this argument. I'm talking about Pyros carrying on about stuff that just doesn't make any sense to me.

But for the record, I do believe that BJ would have beaten Matt if he hadn't hurt his ribs.

Do I go around saying it all the time and taking the win away from Matt? No, Matt won the fight.

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Oh, and I don't see why you bring Fedor when bleeding easily is nothing that has hindered him for being undefeated. And since you brought Fedor, when he broke his hand against Mirko he still pulled off the victory, if BJ is so great why didn't he do the same?
Ummm, yes, yes it has actually. Have you ever noticed that "1" he has sitting in his loss column?? That's because he wasn't TRAINED enough to defend an illegal elbow and he got cut. He really should be working on that in camp. Maybe THEN he could really be an undefeated fighter.

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I think Chris was more or less saying freak accidents occur that aren't always a direct result of the fighter making a wrong or overzealous decision. Using your example, suppose in an attempt to avoid the TD and breaking his arm, Shogun sprawls and blows a hamstring. Is it then his fault for trying to avoid the TD? His fault for not being a high-jump specialist on the track team in high school and leaping over Coleman altogether? His fault for taking the fight at all? This doesn't really end anywhere productive...
Thank you, but I think you'll find that arguing against Pyros will leave you feeling pretty empty when all is said and done.
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Old 06-26-2008, 11:38 AM   #40 (permalink)
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Ummm, yes, yes it has actually. Have you ever noticed that "1" he has sitting in his loss column?? That's because he wasn't TRAINED enough to defend an illegal elbow and he got cut. He really should be working on that in camp. Maybe THEN he could really be an undefeated fighter.
So you are one of those people? Didn't know you were a Fedor hater, good to know. I already said that injuries not coming for illegal blows are the fighter's fault, something which is out of the rules isn't, I guess you overlooked that part of my posts, or just are bringing this because you really think that illegal blows should be a legit way to win a fight, in which case I have nothing more to discuss with you.
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